Originally posted by bobcats

You keep on complaining about mountain folks being slow and not being able to play football and Beathitt and probably a few others will keep adding state champioships to their colection. By the way besides 1 or 2 championships in the last 10years, what else can the western side say they have.

 

That old saying- It's not what you have done in the past that counts, it's what your doing now.:thumb:

 

Here is why the EKY is considered to be the weakest (though they have a better track record than Lexington teams) football area in the state.

 

Title Game appearances From 1992 thru 2002 all 4 classes included (I meant to go back 10 years as mentioned by bobcats but I was a slow learner in math and did not realize until I looked this up that I went back 11 years :lol: )

 

Lexington - 4

E KY - 9

Central - 16

Louisville - 17 (Includes Bullitt East, Nelson & Shelby Counties)

W KY - 19 (Includes Ft. Knox runner up in 96, Ft. Knox is hard to call West but also hard to call Central or Louisville)

N KY - 21

 

By Class

Lexington - Class A, AA, AAA - None (Few teams in these classes)

AAAA - 4

 

E KY - Class A - 1 (Middlesboro)

AA - 6 (Breathitt is carrying EKY in AA)

AAA - 2 (Rockcastle 01 & 02)

AAAA - None

 

Central KY - Class A - 6

AA - 7

AAA - 3

AAAA - None

 

Louisville - Class A - None

AA - 1 (Bullitt East)

AAA - 1 (Waggoner)

AAAA - 15 (AMAZING !)

 

W KY - Class A - 4

AA - 8

AAA - 7

AAAA - None

 

NKY - Class A - 10

AA - None

AAA - 9

AAAA - 2 (Boone Co)

Great stats Toothpick.

 

I'm going to take the other side on this discussion for just a minute. I don't think that you can base the decision soley on "Carpet appearances". Just because they didn't make the carpet, doesn't mean that they don't have good teams in EKY. An argument can be made that they have several good teams in each class and just beat up on each other every year and by the time the playoffs roll around, they're so beat up they can't compete.

I think comparing the regions of Kentucky is a case of comparing apples and oranges.

 

First of all, as has already been mentioned, there are very few 4A schools in eastern Kentucky, and no schools that can be considered large by Lexington/Louisville standards. It should be no surprise that the eastern part of the state cannot compete in 4A.

 

Next, the population density in the eastern part of the state is much lower, and the poverty rate much higher than the rest of the state. That means that many potentially great athletes do not get involved in sports because of transportation problems, or the need to begin working part time as soon as possible in order to help support themselves and/or their families. An enrollment of 600 students in an affluent Covington suburb contains more potential, and available athletes than a similar sized school in eastern Kentucky.

 

Finally, because of the first two factors, the good teams in the east usually end up playing a weaker schedule than their counterparts in the Golden Triangle, and the Bowling Green and Paducah areas do. For non-district games, scheduling good teams to travel east is difficult, and travel expenses are not insignificant when a mountain team travels westward to play good competition.

 

Considering the factors working against mountain teams, I think eastern Kentucky teams do a very good job competing with other areas of the state. For example, the east should dominate Class 2-A next season, and I believe that the area will also have several 3-A teams who could be factors in the playoffs again.

 

I think certain schools are too eager to credit superior coaching, superior athletes, superiod teachers, etc. for successful academic and athletic programs, while ignoring the advantages that their school's location and demographics provide.

Toothpick,

 

I can't argue the fact that there are several good teams in the west. THe only thing I am saying is that the eastern part of the state has some very solid teams that can compete with anyone in the state at any level with the exception of our 4A class.

 

The only thing I don't agree with you on is Highlands being a WKY team. As far as athletes I would probably agree that they are more athletes probably in other areas, but I will say that our area especially Breathitt County and their coaching staff does more with their athletes than probably anyone in the state. Now let someone argue me on that point.:lol: :lol:

Originally posted by bobcats

The only thing I don't agree with you on is Highlands being a WKY team.

 

Do you mean Ft. Knox?

Originally posted by NamecipS

Do you mean Ft. Knox?

 

I agree, to tell the truth, I am not sure where to put Ft. KNox so I padded the numbers for my side (W KY) of the state. :lol:

 

bobcat, I am assuming you meant Ft Knox instead of Highlands.

 

1 thing I noticed when I looked up state championship appearances was that it seems that region really made little difference. A small percentage of the programs dominate both titles and appearances. Mayfield out west, Breathitt in the east, Danville and recently Boyle and Bardstown in the Central, Highlands. Beechwood. Coth Cath up north and Trinity, X and Male in DaVille. After these elite programs the drop off is way off everywhere.

 

A few Great programs are carrying their regions if you use my titles appearance approach. Take the elites out and it becomes hard to tell if any area is really much better than the other.

 

HEagle, as usual, nice post that is very accurate

If we are talking about state champioship appearances all time here is how they break down.

 

Mountain Schools

 

20 Class A appearances

Record 9-11

Champions (9)

 

Middlesboro (1)

Pikeville (3)

Lynch (4)

Elkhorn City (1)

 

Runner-Ups

Cumberland (3)

Paintsville (2)

Pikeville (1)

Elkhorn City (1)

Lynch (4)

 

21 Class 2 A Apearances

Record 7-14* This includes the Breathitt/Corbin Matchup 2003

Champions (6)

 

Breathitt County (3)

Corbin (3)

Paul Blazer (1)

 

Runner-Ups

Prestonsburg (2)

Somerset (3)

Corbin (3)

Pikeville (1)

Middlesboro (3)

Paul Blazer (1)

 

7 Class 3 A Appearances

Record 2-5

Champions (2)

 

Bell County (1)

Paul Blazer (1)

 

Runner-Ups

Rockcastle County (2)

Belfry (3)

 

I believe these numbers are right, I got them off of the KHSAA website. I think that compared to other parts of the state, Eastern KY fairs pretty well. We are more competitive in our classes than the Lexington schools are, and just as competitive in the class 2A as the Western Kentucky and Central Kentucky schools.

A couple of points. Toothpick, I love this stuff. I'm not trying to pick on you here, just playing devils advocate.

 

First, you put Bardstown with Central Kentucky and Nelson County with Louisville. I would think those two would be in the same region.

 

Second, when we talk about WKY or EKY, we are talking about HUGE geographic regions with MANY more schools than the other regions listed. I know you've kind of addressed this in saying that the regions really don't matter, as only a handful of teams are carrying the torch for an entire region. But if the region is big enough, then there is a greater pool from which to get that "handful of teams".

 

WKY and EKY as defined by the majority of Kentuckians are both regions that encompass 35-40 counties. Put those two together and you've got nearly 80 of our 120 couties, and probably 130-140 of the 216 football playing schools

 

Poor ol Lexington gets put in a class by itself. Up until 1992, Lexington had 4 schools that played football. There are now only 6 (7, but LCA which just started up and can't count toward this ten year comparison). Dunbar and Lex Cath are still in there infancies as schools but have fared pretty well. But how can you line up a "region" with only 6 schools competing in football (5 in the same class, and same region) and compare the title game appearances to a region with 70 schools that play football in 4 different classes. Of course the region with the 11 to 1 advantage in number of schools should be able to come up with a greater number of quality teams. Those regions have shools playing in all 4 classes, meaning they could concievably send 4 teams per year to the carpet (or more than that in Louisvilles case, there are schools playing in all 4 classes there, and as is evidenced by the last 3 state finals, Louisville has the good fortune of being the dividing line for the semi states, and can send more than one team to the finals in 4A. There could concievably be 5 Louisville schools playing in state title games in a single year.)

 

That's not the case in Lexington. Even if every single public school in Lexington was top 25 in America, only ONE of them could make it to the carpet each year (Even if they were ranked number 1 and 2 in America, Henry Clay and Dunbar could not BOTH make it to the finals in the same year) -- that's a MAXIMUM of 10 appearances over the last ten years (they have 4, not too bad). That would leave one solitary school to choose from, Lexington Catholic, to represent all of the other 3 classes when doing a comparison like this.

 

In my opinion, Lexington and Central Kentucky should probably be grouped into one category "Bluegrass Region". That would make it a region comparable to Louisville and NKY as far as number of schools in the region. Plus, it just makes sense, if Louisville is defined by Jefferson and it's outlying counities, then the same should probably hold true for Lex. Paris/Bourbon (10 miles), Danville/Boyle (35 miles) and Harrodsburg/Mercer (33 miles) are all closer to Lexington than Bardstown/Nelson is to Louisville (40 miles.)

 

Also, as far as Ft. Knox, I'd definitely put them in the Louisville region, along with Bardstown/Nelson County and Bullitt East.

To me, western Kentucky is defined by the line between Owensboro and Bowling Green ... roughly the first four basketball regions.

 

Eastern Kentucky is the southern edge of the 12th Region, plus regions 13-15 and maybe even part of 16.

 

Roughly, the same geographic area and number of schools, I would guess.

Bubs

 

We were talking about the last 10 years, not all time. E KY has made 9 appearances in the last 10 years. 6 of those were in AA. W KY has made 18 or 19 depending upon how Ft Knox is counted. 8 of those were in AA. So in AA I would have to agree with your statement. The other 3 classes however is where the East has been lagging. This is not a suprise in 4A.

 

Bluegrassfootballfan

 

Great post!

 

Your correct, I had Bardstown in Central and Nelson in Louisville, my oversite. I also agree, Lex is last due to being in a unfair situation. Putting Lex with Central is a good idea. That would give the Central area 20 title appearences.

As for advantages to huge geographic areas, I am not sure I completely agree. The metro areas have numerous advantages as HEagle cited. None the less, I still feel that a few carry the banner for all. Look what Trinity has meant to Louisville, Highlands and Beechwood to NKY, Mayfield to WKY, Breathitt to EKY, Danville to CKY. Take away the top teams that win the majority of the titles and I think the regions are fairly close

Another item that needs to be taken into consideration and it probably applies statewide but more so here in east Ky. We still have several schools that do not have a football team.There are 4 high schools in Breathitt county and Breathitt is the only one to have a football team.Breathitts first football team was about 1974 or 1975 as I recall. Three adjoining counties (Lee,Owsley and Wolfe) do not possess football teams.I dont think Jackson County located at McKee has football either.I am sure there are others located through out the region.Anyone think of any others that do not possess a football team?

Originally posted by Breathittguy

Another item that needs to be taken into consideration and it probably applies statewide but more so here in east Ky. We still have several schools that do not have a football team.

 

I am sure there are others located through out the region.Anyone think of any others that do not possess a football team?

 

Good observation, Out west there are alot of schools without football teams, for that matter there are lots of counties that are not large enough to have a football program at any of the schools in their county. Carlisle Co, Hickman Co, Lyon Co, and Livingston Co. are all located in deep WKY and have no football teams in the entire county.

i'll take central kentucky all day long....i think that the talent here can compete with anyone, even louisville......i also think that western ky has some unbelievable talent.....

Originally posted by Run Dusty Run

Great thread, I think I might have some solid imput on this thread. My family is from easternketucky and my farther has coached at notherky where he was a part of a state title, he has coached the louisville area where he had two 10-1 teams and he has coached at western part of the state and was part of 2 state titles. From general observations I would give nothernky a slight nod over westernky. Most people are going to say louisville area and they do have the top 3 easily (trinty,male st.x) but if you would rank the top ten I believe they would be third. Below are my view of westernky top 10 programs the last 20 years or so.

 

 

 

1. Mayfield- One of the elite programs in the state.

2. Hoptown- Couple of titles and couple more coming.

3. Bowling Green- Won a title in 96 always tough.

4. Henderson- Great talent should have won a title by now.

5. Christian- Couple of titles, seem to regain their form.

6. Waren Central- Always fast and talented.

7. Owensbore- Remember higgs and company.

8. Caldwell - two titles tradition of great coaches

9. Trigg - Won a title in the 70's came close in late 80's.

10. Apollo- Loaded with speed just get over the hump.

 

 

 

 

glasgow is only 30 minutes away from bg and has made 2 appearances in Louisville(99 and 00), won 3 regional titles and most district titles from the last 10 years.

Bengal,

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how WRONG it is. You obviously have issues with Rockcastle. Oh well, I guess you can always say "We played Boyle closer".

 

Predicting outcomes of hypothetical games based on scores against common opponents might seem reasonable but can be very misleading. I think this illustration has already been used once but in case you missed it consider these scores from 2002:

 

Danville 20 Boyle 10

Lex Cath 32 Danville 26

Highlands 31 Lex Cath 24

Rock 45 Highlands 6

 

By looking at this you would think Rockcastle should have killed Boyle . What happened? Matchups. Football is all about matchups. I have alot of respect for Hopkinsville because they were able to play Boyle as tough as they did. But are you saying you think Hopkinsville would have beaten Highlands by forty? Maybe Hoptown beats the Rock,MAYBE, we'll never know. But to think we couldn't finish higher than 4th in your district is hilarious.

 

Enough of that. As for the East vs West all-stars. I'm a homer, give me the East. I wish we could find out. And as far as ranking the state, I think Password was right on as usual.