Conversely, to some Israel is always right no matter the circumstances, often to the point of elevating the perceived interests of Israel above the United States'. Frankly, I think it's a situation not a lot of people know much about - including me - which makes it extremely easy to hold a rigid ideological position one way or another.

 

In terms of land mass and population, there are similarities between New Jersey and Israel. NJ has 8,722 square miles of land area to Israel’s 8,522 square miles. NJ has 8.7 million citizens to Israel’s 7.6 million.

 

If Pennsylvania, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Rhode Island, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, and several other adjoining states had sworn themselves to the total destruction of New Jersey and all her people… running them into the sea… for noting more than their spiritual heritage and ethnicity… I believe most everyone on here would be onboard with supporting the people of New Jersey.

In terms of land mass and population, there are similarities between New Jersey and Israel. NJ has 8,722 square miles of land area to Israel’s 8,522 square miles. NJ has 8.7 million citizens to Israel’s 7.6 million.

 

If Pennsylvania, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Rhode Island, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, and several other adjoining states had sworn themselves to the total destruction of New Jersey and all her people… running them into the sea… for noting more than their spiritual heritage and ethnicity… I believe most everyone on here would be onboard with supporting the people of New Jersey.

 

Wow, don't even know where to begin with this. First, as far as I know, Iran is the only country that has called for the destruction of Israel. Some other Arab countries don't have diplomatic relations with Israel, but that doesn't mean they want to totally destroy them. In fact, most countries enjoy trade and commerce at a high level with Israel, including Saudi Arabia. Egypt and Jordan share borders and have lived in peace for many years. So to say the whole Middle East has calls for the destruction of Israel just shows poor research.

 

Secondly, and this is a whole other argument, but to say that Arabs are intolerant and just want Israel erased for their "spiritual heritage and ethnicity" is way off the mark.

 

I think both sides in this are in the wrong to be honest. Israel is a bully and Arab states provoke them. Kind of a chicken and egg thing that won't be solved anytime soon.

Wow, don't even know where to begin with this. First, as far as I know, Iran is the only country that has called for the destruction of Israel. Some other Arab countries don't have diplomatic relations with Israel, but that doesn't mean they want to totally destroy them. In fact, most countries enjoy trade and commerce at a high level with Israel, including Saudi Arabia. Egypt and Jordan share borders and have lived in peace for many years. So to say the whole Middle East has calls for the destruction of Israel just shows poor research.

Are you suggesting that if Iran launches a full on assault of Israel with nuclear weapons, there will be any Arab nation that will stand in the gap in defense of Israel?

 

Seriously???

 

The charters for Hamas, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah and other anti-Israel Arab organizations contain specific language for the destruction of Israel, often echoing the language of the Koran.

 

Here's a nifty little sample from The Hamas Charter (1988) Article 7 which provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed:

 

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

 

The land area of the seven nations of the Arabian Peninsula plus neighboring Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Iran is 1.9 million square miles... just over half of the United States. The population of those nations is about 210 million people... about 27 times that of Israel. This does not count the dozen Muslim nations of North Africa without formal diplomatic relations with Israel.

 

I stand by my "poorly researched" comments.

 

Secondly, and this is a whole other argument, but to say that Arabs are intolerant and just want Israel erased for their "spiritual heritage and ethnicity" is way off the mark.

So... genocide is only genocide if I define it clearly... and the destruction of a nation and its people is not "intolerant" as long as it's not done for reasons of "spiritual heritage and ethnicity?"

 

I think both sides in this are in the wrong to be honest. Israel is a bully and Arab states provoke them. Kind of a chicken and egg thing that won't be solved anytime soon.

If New Jersey were threatened by every other state east of the Mississippi, I wouldn't blame them for having a big bark with a bigger bite.

Are you suggesting that if Iran launches a full on assault of Israel with nuclear weapons, there will be any Arab nation that will stand in the gap in defense of Israel?

 

Seriously???

 

The charters for Hamas, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah and other anti-Israel Arab organizations contain specific language for the destruction of Israel, often echoing the language of the Koran.

 

The land area of the seven nations of the Arabian Peninsula plus neighboring Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Iran is 1.9 million square miles... just over half of the United States. The population of those nations is about 210 million people... about 27 times that of Israel. This does not count the dozen Muslim nations of North Africa without formal diplomatic relations with Israel.

 

 

 

You're completely ignoring geopolitics and understanding of Muslim divides.

First, if Iran were to attack Iran, you really think Arab nations would assist in it? Of course they aren't. Aside from pockets of extremists in Lebanon and Syria, the Arabs DO NOT agree with/follow the whims of Iran. Arabs hate Iran. Hate. And just because they're not buddy buddy with Israel doesn't mean they want to see it destroyed.

 

Secondly, if Iran were to attack Israel, they would have to use nuclear weapons. Try a conventional attack and between the IDF and US presence in the Gulf, they get rolled over. So to deliver a nuclear payload, Iran would have to fly over Iraq to do so. You think the US is going to let this happen? Or course not. And even if they tried to fly over Saudi, the US would know. To suggest the Saudi's would assist Iran is just silly.

 

Thirdly, you keep harping on land mass. What in the world difference does that make? Just because a state like Saudi is huge in landmass doesn't make it a bigger threat. And how can you make a broad, sweeping generalization by saying there are 210 million people in those countries and assume that 1) they're all preparing to fight for the destruction of Israel and 2) that they even care.

 

So what you're left with is pockets of fighters in Lebanon, Syria and Iran. And the state of Lebanon isn't even against Israel, it's more Hizbollah in the south. And you realize the President of Lebanon is a Christian, right?

 

You'd like to make it nice and easy- Israel is this sheep in the middle of a bunch of wolves ready to devour it. At the drop of a hat, Israel could be invaded by every country in the Middle East and the population detroyed. That's good for your narrative, but couldn't be further from the actual situation.

 

Listen, I see both sides of it. Both of them have been in the wrong in history. But I just get tired of these assertions that the whole middle east is plotting for the death of Israel. It's completely not the case. Like I said, most ME countries enjoy great trade with Israel and don't want to see that source of $$$ dry up.

To be fair to both sides, is it fair to judge a violent situation that lasted more than the mere seconds represented in clips? Or to judge based on only one or two clips? I'm not saying either side was justified in their actions. I do feel that most people will jump on the pro- or anti-Israeli bandwagon based on their own limited knowledge and perception of the situation in Israel with regard to the Gaza Strip and Palestine. I also think the US has to walk a fine line (and it's an almost impossibly fine line in this case), to hopefully preserve our relationship with Israel, and with Turkey.

 

It is this type of thinking that allows the bad guys to get away with this manure, allowing some to think the bad guys are really good guys. The evidence is clear as to who the bad guys are, Islamic extremists. You need to drop your warm fuzzy thinking and see how these extremists are trying to manipulate opinion.

^Israel has inspected the cargo and found medicine, cement, hospital beds, dry food products, wheel chairs, building supplies and children's toys on the boats. They've allowed it to pass and it's reaching Gaza now.

:thumb:

They were in international waters, I don't think we can take Israel's word on everything as 100% truth, many tend to give them a free pass on anything they do. Does the USS Liberty ring a bell?

It is this type of thinking that allows the bad guys to get away with this manure, allowing some to think the bad guys are really good guys. The evidence is clear as to who the bad guys are, Islamic extremists. You need to drop your warm fuzzy thinking and see how these extremists are trying to manipulate opinion.

What did RM say that was all "warm and fuzzy?" I agree 100% with RM! People need to look at something like this fairly and open minded, and you can't judge an event just on a few very short clips, no matter what side you take on an issue.

 

As RM said, "most people will jump on the pro- or anti-Israeli bandwagon based on their own limited knowledge and perception of the situation in Israel with regard to the Gaza Strip and Palestine." They will either blindly take Israel's side or blindly jump the anti Israel side.

 

So, these were "bad guys"? Who had medicine, cement, hospital beds, dry food products, wheel chairs, building supplies and children's toys on the boats? I am not taking the other side as 100% either without looking into this, but to say they were Islamic extremists?

 

Turkey is a very important ally, who if im not mistaken had a decent relationship with Israel.

But yet we sit by and let Iran build nukes to try to blow up Israel.

 

Iran is a VERY sticky situation, what are we to do with Iran anyway? The situation inside of Iran is tense among their own people, hopefully their will be an uprising, and people are kidding themselves if they think the US is not secretly trying to help. But, if the US and or Israel attacks Iran you can then say good-bye to the, mostly young Iranian, protests and dissatisfaction with their government, an attack will only unite them. The best thing to do is what we are doing now.

It is this type of thinking that allows the bad guys to get away with this manure, allowing some to think the bad guys are really good guys. The evidence is clear as to who the bad guys are, Islamic extremists. You need to drop your warm fuzzy thinking and see how these extremists are trying to manipulate opinion.

 

I don't have "warm and fuzzy" thinking. There are extremists on both sides, yet many are so Pro-Israel they are blinded to the real fact that Israel is not blameless in the whole Palestinian situation. For that matter, neither are the United States and Great Britain, both of whom ultimately created the mess, IMO.

 

Very rarely, VERY rarely is one side completely blameless. And this is certainly one situation that both sides share blame. This is a decades old problem. And blockades by Israel of aid to the Gaza Strip is only going to exacerbate what Palestinians feel is Israel trying to control them. Think about it...if you lived in the Gaza Strip, and you knew that Israel wanted to see gone, or ideally dead, what part of you would trust their claim to ensure the goods would make it to the Gaza Strip after they inspected them?

:thumb:

They were in international waters, I don't think we can take Israel's word on everything as 100% truth, many tend to give them a free pass on anything they do. Does the USS Liberty ring a bell?

They also found weapons, so...

There's an old saying I believe is true... "If the Arabs lay down their weapons, war will end. If Israel lays down her wepons, Israel will end."

 

I'm sure there are several of you who will disagree...

There's an old saying I believe is true... "If the Arabs lay down their weapons, war will end. If Israel lays down her wepons, Israel will end."

 

I'm sure there are several of you who will disagree...

 

:lol:

That just continues to go along with your narrative. Can you admit Israeli doesn't always act morally and may be part of the problem as well? You do realize that during the Gaza War last year, for every one Israeli killed by Hamas, there were more than 100 Palestinians killed? And those weren't all enemy combatants- almost 1000 civilians were killed. And what about the settlement issue? The wall? Sure, it's all supposed to be done in the interest of "security", but Palestinians are now treated like second class citizens in the own country. Their treatment is borderline inhumane. I know, I've seen it firsthand.

 

I'll tell you all the same thing I tell everyone I meet- spend time in Israel and is becomes unbelievably difficult to continue to support Israeli actions. But I'm telling you that Palestinian groups are in the wrong, too. Nothing gets solved by terrorism. The sooner they realize this, the sooner they can maybe solve this. I just wish you could admit Israel is in the wrong here, too.

:lol:

That just continues to go along with your narrative. Can you admit Israeli doesn't always act morally and may be part of the problem as well? You do realize that during the Gaza War last year, for every one Israeli killed by Hamas, there were more than 100 Palestinians killed? And those weren't all enemy combatants- almost 1000 civilians were killed. And what about the settlement issue? The wall? Sure, it's all supposed to be done in the interest of "security", but Palestinians are now treated like second class citizens in the own country. Their treatment is borderline inhumane. I know, I've seen it firsthand.

 

I'll tell you all the same thing I tell everyone I meet- spend time in Israel and is becomes unbelievably difficult to continue to support Israeli actions. But I'm telling you that Palestinian groups are in the wrong, too. Nothing gets solved by terrorism. The sooner they realize this, the sooner they can maybe solve this. I just wish you could admit Israel is in the wrong here, too.

 

How many of the civilian deaths are due to the "heroic" actions of the palisteinans hiding among civilians? As long as Hamas exists Palestine will get zero sympathy from me.

I wonder what Israel will do tomorrow or Saturday when an Irish ship is set to dock in Gaza to deliver humanitarian goods.

:lol:

That just continues to go along with your narrative. Can you admit Israeli doesn't always act morally and may be part of the problem as well? You do realize that during the Gaza War last year, for every one Israeli killed by Hamas, there were more than 100 Palestinians killed? And those weren't all enemy combatants- almost 1000 civilians were killed. And what about the settlement issue? The wall? Sure, it's all supposed to be done in the interest of "security", but Palestinians are now treated like second class citizens in the own country. Their treatment is borderline inhumane. I know, I've seen it firsthand.

 

I'll tell you all the same thing I tell everyone I meet- spend time in Israel and is becomes unbelievably difficult to continue to support Israeli actions. But I'm telling you that Palestinian groups are in the wrong, too. Nothing gets solved by terrorism. The sooner they realize this, the sooner they can maybe solve this. I just wish you could admit Israel is in the wrong here, too.

Nowhere have I suggested that Israel is without error.

 

What I am saying is that Israel doesn't have a whole hell of a lot of options. Where are they going to go? What would you do if a group sworn to your destruction was lobbing missles down upon your citizens and hiding behind the skirts of their women and children? The civilian deaths are the result of cowardly or devilish tactics of the Hamas militants lobbing the missles IMO.

 

I cannot lie and say that I have walked the streets of Jerusalem. I can honestly state that I have many friends that live there. I have one very close friend that had a SCUD missle land 100 yards from his family home in Tel Aviv. It blew out all his windows, showering his wife and kids in shards of glass. I know a half dozen former Israeli military personnnel. They have told me how they were trained and the restrictions they were under in engaging hostiles. I know for a fact their enemies were under no such restrictions regarding the use of force, or potentially jeopardizing civilians. I realize that I have gotten most of the story from their point of view... but I trust them.

 

You go out of your way to point out my apparent lack of understanding of Muslim factions and geopolitical issues. I don't have the time or inclination to prove otherwise. I do know there is a tiny country with 7.6 million people, founded and built by those fortunate few who survived a holocaust that slaughtered at least 6 million of their people without a homeland. (Perhaps you can provide me Hitler's POV justifying this wholesale slaughter of a race of people? You know... just to ensure I'm really seeing both sides of the story, and that I'm not misguided into believeing there's a much larger spiritual warfare component to all this that has caused the world to hate "God's chosen people" for centuries.) They have been surrounded over 60 years by many who would like to finish the job Hitler left undone. Many more of those not actively engaged in the destruction of Israel, would celebrate their total demise... and certainly not lift a finger to defend them against overwhelming odds.

 

Now that I have stated that I do not believe Israel is without flaw... maybe you can tell someone without a great depth of understanding in the nuances of Muslim divides and geopolitical affairs, what you believe Israel's best course of action is. :thumb:

Edited June 3, 201016 yr by Fastbreak