You don't think who has the numbers? McGwire? He's definitely got the numbers. The question is whether those numbers - of which the most important one is his HR total - were attainable without the longterm use of PED's. If he were Ken Griffey - someone who has never been alleged of using - he would be in already or would be darn close to it.

 

I know he has the numbers. That's what I tried to make a point of in that post. He has the numbers for the HOF. Yes, he used steroids while trying to acheive them BUT there were pitchers juiced just the same. For that reason I think he should get in. It was just the era he played in, and he played against players that were doing the same.

 

However, the voters will never allow him in IMO.

I know he has the numbers. That's what I tried to make a point of in that post. He has the numbers for the HOF. Yes, he used steroids while trying to acheive them BUT there were pitchers juiced just the same. For that reason I think he should get in. It was just the era he played in, and he played against players that were doing the same.

 

However, the voters will never allow him in IMO.

 

Okay, I gotcha.

 

It is going to get very, very interesting these next few years when some of the players who should be absolute 100% locks to get in, yet have this steroid-blackball attached to their name, become eligible. Palmerio, Bagwell, and Gonzalez I believe are all eligible in 2011 and of course Bonds and Clemens will be the ultimate tests.

Edited January 12, 201016 yr by cooperstown
sp

Okay, I gotcha.

 

It is going to get very, very interesting these next few years when some of the players who should be absolute 100% locks to get in, yet have this steroid-blackball attached to their name, become eligible. Palmerio, Bagwell, and Gonzalez I beleive are all eligible in 20011 and of course Bonds and Clemens will be the ultimate tests.

 

I agree. The whole situation is interesting. I see where the ol' timers don't want their plaques right next to some of their greats in the HOF, but at the same time at the end of the day in Cooperstown, NY exists the BASEBALL HOF. For that reason they cannot just throw away an entire BASEBALL era and all of the BASEBALL history that took place in that time.

 

Do they open a certain wing just for the history and players from the "Juiced" era of baseball? They could and I think it is the way to get the most people on board, but I do not think it is necessary. I hate that the game was somewhat tainted at that time because very few things in my life rank as highly as baseball, but it was part of the game and for that reason everything from that era should be recognized within the HOF.

Personally, I have taken on a new line of thinking with regard to the steroid users HOF entrance. Initially, I thought "They heck with them. They disgraced the best sport in the world. They knew they were cheating. None of them should get in." And part of me still feels that way.

 

But now I am learning towards the fact the we will never really, truly know the extent of steroid use in the game. Never true know who used and who didn't and how much and what period of time. And as you said, you cen't just toss out an entire era of baseball. You will inadvertantly toss out the Ken Griffeys or Derek Jeters of the world if you do that.

 

The fact of the matter is that those "great" players who were/are associated with steroids were great players regardless. "Great" enough to get into the HOF? That's the million dollar question. It's simply impossible to quantify which "great" player crossed the HOF-worthy threshold solely because of PED's, so why try? You don't have to worry about people like Bret Boone. Whether he used or not, his career wasn't HOF caliber. At the end of the day, it's easiest to simply look at the final numbers of each player like baseball has always done (NO sport puts as much emphasis on numbers as does baseball), disregard the steroids stuff, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

That being said, I have a REAL issue with anyone that goes into court, swears to tell the truth, then lies their butt off. Should that alone keep Clemens out of the HOF? No. But I'd sure as heck like to see him punished for it.

That being said, I have a REAL issue with anyone that goes into court, swears to tell the truth, then lies their butt off. Should that alone keep Clemens out of the HOF? No. But I'd sure as heck like to see him punished for it.

 

Palmeiro(sp?) was the one that irked me more than anyone at that meeting.

Palmeiro(sp?) was the one that irked me more than anyone at that meeting.

 

And I think he'll potentially pay a high price for it. He becomes eligible next year and, based on numbers, is an absolute first-year no-brainer. But I'm going to take a guess that he falls a fair amount short. Like you, there were a lot of baseball fans/writers/players upset with that whole fiasco, not the least of which was Palmeiro's finger-wagging denials. And then the spineless turd threw his own teammate under the bus by claiming he had been given tainted vitamin supplements. Class.

Here is my take on it. The people that were taking performance enhancing drugs will have better stats for 2 reasons.

 

1. I understand that you still have to be able to hit the ball, and that takes a tremendous amount of eye hand coordination, but HR's and RBI would not have been close to what they were over that period of time.

 

2. They also helped them stay healthy and play more games than they would have without them.

Here is my take on it. The people that were taking performance enhancing drugs will have better stats for 2 reasons.

 

1. I understand that you still have to be able to hit the ball, and that takes a tremendous amount of eye hand coordination, but HR's and RBI would not have been close to what they were over that period of time.

 

2. They also helped them stay healthy and play more games than they would have without them.

 

No question both are true, but since we don't really know who all took them, what they took, or for what period of time they took them - much less not being able to accurately quantify how much it helped them - how do you allow some of them into the HOF and not allow others? ANd it's very hard to disallow ALL of them because we really don't know - and never will - every player that took them, even for brief periods of time.

Not in his lifetime.

Maybe a new commissioner will take a different stance than old "Bud". Thank God he is retiring after next year.

I bet mighty might Bret Boone was even on em. I would love to see a list of who admitted or tested positive to steroids over the past 10 years.

 

You think? He went from like 180 to 210-215 over 1 offseason.

I don't care who is in the HOF. What I have seen will be my HOF. The summer of 98 was an amazing time. I will always remember McGwire hitting #62. The play of Pete Rose, the image of him slamming into Ray Fosse. I could care less, whether a bunch of rich owners or pompous media types think they need special recognition or not. They can't take my memories away.

I don't care who is in the HOF. What I have seen will be my HOF. The summer of 98 was an amazing time. I will always remember McGwire hitting #62. The play of Pete Rose, the image of him slamming into Ray Fosse. I could care less, whether a bunch of rich owners or pompous media types think they need special recognition or not. They can't take my memories away.

 

I don't even like baseball, but I wanted to see MM at every at bat that summer.