Ive got the CBO numbers from 2001 and 2003, and the graph is accurate in what it expresses.

 

Here is my interpretation of the numbers. The blue is the percent of all income(not wealth) before taxes that each fifth of the population based on income recives. Obviously, the richest twenty percent of people, hold a majority of the income.

 

The red bars- the effective tax rate refers to the amount in taxes paid after all government offsets and other payments are applied, and then divided by income. While the richest 20% do pay the most taxes, in comparison to thier income, after deductions, other offsets, they pay a smaller rate in comparison to income.

The Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) should be abolished!

 

When first introduced in 1969, the AMT was widely acknowledged to be a "rich man's tax" -- a fallback tax for those "wily" taxpayers with big incomes and numerous deductibles. But because the AMT has been adjusted for inflation only twice in 30 years, it is now encroaching upon the middle class - guys like me. My wife and I make a good living, but are hardly rich. I find it ridiculous that I am classified as "wealthy" and need to have my deductions limited, don't get to take advantage of things like the child tax credit, and can't even make contributions to a Roth IRA.

My 2:41 AM attachments never work either. I wonder why?

 

:lol: :sssh:

 

Ive got the CBO numbers from 2001 and 2003, and the graph is accurate in what it expresses.

 

Here is my interpretation of the numbers. The blue is the percent of all income(not wealth) before taxes that each fifth of the population based on income recives. Obviously, the richest twenty percent of people, hold a majority of the income.

 

The red bars- the effective tax rate refers to the amount in taxes paid after all government offsets and other payments are applied, and then divided by income. While the richest 20% do pay the most taxes, in comparison to thier income, after deductions, other offsets, they pay a smaller rate in comparison to income.

 

That is my understanding. Here is the link to the CBO figures. I still need to read the whole report.

"In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth."

 

Per wikipedia because I'm not going to the effort of finding other sources.

 

The point being, I don't shed tears when the wealthy pay there share. The fact is the wealthy build there enterprises and wealth generators off infrastructure and other reasources provided by our American government. The roads allow them access to markets, the public schools generate a competitve workforce and etc etc with the net result being they get more money out of it than a less wealthy person does.

I'm more disturbed that the wealth disparity is so large than I am that the rich pay more taxes.

 

The American Government? The American government doesnt provide one single thing. Without tax revenue there would be none of those things. So opposite of what your saying...the wealthy are paying for the infrastructure that many use for free.

I get so worn out by this...

 

I grew up poor. I have been fortunate to rise out of poverty to be what many of you and the govt would consider "rich". I put myself through college and started my own business'. I work with many people of all different levels of wealth. I have people who work for me that make $9 an hour and people who make $200k+. There are traits to those top earners that are similar across the board. The are very HARD workers. They are the earliest to arrive and are the ones usually here the latest. Everyone of them worked their way up. We have very few people who work for us who started out at a large salary. There are many people similar to this across this country. I have a boy (20 yrs old) and he makes $9K a month. He has no college education. When he started working for us his base salary was $1500 a month. He busted his butt and worked 60-70 hour weeks.

 

Now I'm not saying that the other people arent working hard...because they are working probably as hard as their capable. But!!!! I have never had an employee who works hard and does the right things that stays in an entry level position very long. Their hard work (and intelligence) help elevate them among their peers.

 

For some reason...people in this country started thinking they are "entitled" to have what their neighbor has.

 

Another point...I have a cousin who works in a factory. He makes about $65-70,000 a year. He has worked at this factory for 19 years. During this period he has been trained by his company in several trades... He is an electrician, welder, maintence (construction supervisor), and several others. He works a 40 hour week at the factory. He spends the rest of his evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacation time running his side business. His side business is a small construction company. He now makes double his salary at the factory with his side biz. He is pushing probaly $200-$250k a year.

 

Is he rich? He works more hours than any human I know...hasnt had a vacation in years. Should he pay higher taxes?:idunno:

I get so worn out by this...

 

I grew up poor. I have been fortunate to rise out of poverty to be what many of you and the govt would consider "rich". I put myself through college and started my own business'. I work with many people of all different levels of wealth. I have people who work for me that make $9 an hour and people who make $200k+. There are traits to those top earners that are similar across the board. The are very HARD workers. They are the earliest to arrive and are the ones usually here the latest. Everyone of them worked their way up. We have very few people who work for us who started out at a large salary. There are many people similar to this across this country. I have a boy (20 yrs old) and he makes $9K a month. He has no college education. When he started working for us his base salary was $1500 a month. He busted his butt and worked 60-70 hour weeks.

 

Now I'm not saying that the other people arent working hard...because they are working probably as hard as their capable. But!!!! I have never had an employee who works hard and does the right things that stays in an entry level position very long. Their hard work (and intelligence) help elevate them among their peers.

 

For some reason...people in this country started thinking they are "entitled" to have what their neighbor has.

Another point...I have a cousin who works in a factory. He makes about $65-70,000 a year. He has worked at this factory for 19 years. During this period he has been trained by his company in several trades... He is an electrician, welder, maintence (construction supervisor), and several others. He works a 40 hour week at the factory. He spends the rest of his evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacation time running his side business. His side business is a small construction company. He now makes double his salary at the factory with his side biz. He is pushing probaly $200-$250k a year.

 

Is he rich? He works more hours than any human I know...hasnt had a vacation in years. Should he pay higher taxes?:idunno:

 

Gus, you and I are on the same page my friend. I too came from little to nothing.

 

I agree with every word you said, and, IMO, the bolded part is one of the biggest issues we have. It amazes me, how many people think they should have what I have, without doing the work that I have done. It also amazes me how many people, right out of college and high school think they should be able to walk out and buy a $200,000 home, instead of buying a starter, then moving up to something better, and then moving up again.

 

I have always believed that this is a country made for rugged individualists who are willing to hack their way and work their tails off to get where they want to be. No we're not hacking it out of the wilderness or the frontier like the great pioneers of this country, we're hacking it out of an entirely different kind of jungle.

I haven't read this thread, but the ironic things is that lower taxes on top brackets would probably (and has in the past) led to HIGHER tax revenues.

 

The U.S. tax code is so complicated that it is easy for the very wealthy to find loopholes and tax shelters. If you want a system in the which the wealthy pay their share, the answer is NOT to add more words the tax code- the answer is the eliminate the IRS and create a flat tax with less loopholes

 

Just wondering. Are you familiar with the "Fair Tax"? I think Neal Boortz has a book about it that made the New York Best seller List. I know the basics of the Fair Tax and it really seems to be a solve-all alternative. If I'm not mistaken, there is a Bill in congress to adopt it as our tax system.

Just wondering. Are you familiar with the "Fair Tax"? I think Neal Boortz has a book about it that made the New York Best seller List. I know the basics of the Fair Tax and it really seems to be a solve-all alternative. If I'm not mistaken, there is a Bill in congress to adopt it as our tax system.

 

Yes. It has been discussed on this site, too. Personally, I think a flat income tax would be more effective than a flat consumption tax, but I'd take either.

I saw a report that said US corporations avoid paying $100B with a B in taxes each year by using offshore accounts. $100B?

 

The President is trying to change legislation to crack down on this scam. It costs a state like Texas about $9B per year that gets shifted to its taxpayers.

I come from a long line of steel workers on both sides of my family going back five or six generations. I too had the option of becoming a steel worker. I tried it two of the four summers I was in college when the local steel mill actually hired summer workers. The money was great for a college kid, but I couldn't imagine doing it for 30+ years like my dad and granddads and great granddads did. I saved 90% of my money those summers to help pay for college. In the years the steel mill wasn't hiring, I cut grass, worked at the Census Bureau for just above minimum wage, cut tobacco, put up hay, did odd jobs, cut more grass, and did just about anything I could do to generate income. When I did go back to school I had to find a part-time job to pay my bills. I worked as a security guard, unloading trucks for UPS, at a jewelry store, bagging groceries and stocking shelves, as a janitor, blah, blah, blah...

 

All in all, I had over 20 jobs in four years just to get through college. Many weeks I would put in over 40 hours on a paying job (or jobs) while being a full time student. And even then I had to pay back student loans for over 10 years before I had them paid off completely.

 

Over the past quarter century, I have averaged 60-80 hour work weeks, with occasional 90+ hour weeks. I am hardly wealthy, and cannot quit working without my family suffering a significant loss. Throughout this time, I have been told I have an "unfair advantage". It beats me what "advantage" I've had other than good health and a willingness to bust my tail for my family. I certainly don't consider it "unfair". Now I'm told I have to pay even more for the "unfair advantage" my hard work has given me.

 

If this is true, this is no longer the America I was raised to believe in... nor is it the America that existed for over 180 years before I was born.

 

When half our population doesn't pay federal taxes on their income, and that half gets to vote for politicians who promise they will stick it to the "rich guys" so those who don't pay taxes can get more stuff... we're screwed.

 

Class warfare, envy, jealousy, bitterness and strife are gifts straight from the pit of hell... and anyone who promotes them is doing work for the wrong team. :thumb:

Edited April 16, 200917 yr by Fastbreak

I come from a long line of steel workers on both sides of my family going back five or six generations. I too had the option of becoming a steel worker. I tried it two of the four summers I was in college when the local steel mill actually hired summer workers. The money was great for a college kid, but I couldn't imagine doing it for 30+ years like my dad and granddads and great granddads did. I saved 90% of my money those summers to help pay for college. In the years the steel mill wasn't hiring, I cut grass, worked at the Census Bureau for just above minimum wage, cut tobacco, put up hay, did odd jobs, cut more grass, and did just about anything I could do to generate income. When I did go back to school I had to find a part-time job to pay my bills. I worked as a security guard, unloading trucks for UPS, at a jewelry store, bagging groceries and stocking shelves, as a janitor, blah, blah, blah...

 

All in all, I had over 20 jobs in four years just to get through college. Many weeks I would put in over 40 hours on a paying job (or jobs) while being a full time student. And even then I had to pay back student loans for over 10 years before I had them paid off completely.

 

Over the past quarter century, I have averaged 60-80 hour work weeks, with occasional 90+ hour weeks. I am hardly wealthy, and cannot quit working without my family suffering a significant loss. Throughout this time, I have been told I have an "unfair advantage". It beats me what "advantage" I've had other than good health and a willingness to bust my tail for my family. I certainly don't consider it "unfair". Now I'm told I have to pay even more for the "unfair advantage" my hard work has given me.

 

If this is true, this is no longer the America I was raised to believe in... nor is it the America that existed for over 180 years before I was born.

 

When half our population doesn't pay federal taxes on their income, and that half gets to vote for politicians who promise they will stick it to the "rich guys" so those who don't pay taxes can get more stuff... we're screwed.

 

Class warfare, envy, jealousy, bitterness and strife are gifts straight from the pit of hell... and anyone who promotes them is doing work for the wrong team. :thumb:

Bravo. Excellent post!

I saw a report that said US corporations avoid paying $100B with a B in taxes each year by using offshore accounts. $100B?

 

The President is trying to change legislation to crack down on this scam. It costs a state like Texas about $9B per year that gets shifted to its taxpayers.

The U.S. tax code as 5.6 million words in it. This is 7 times as large as the Bible. Is anyone actually surprised that a multi-billion dollar corporation will be able to find various loopholes?

 

The solution is not to raise taxes on the wealthy or to add even more words to the code now prohibiting offshore accounts. Higher taxes only make it more profitable to hire tax attorneys and tax lawyers to find more loopholes, and more words themselves only open up more loopholes.

 

The solution is to simplify the tax code, and IMO the best way to do that is to abolish the IRS and enact some sort of flat tax with minimal loopholes.

I saw a report that said US corporations avoid paying $100B with a B in taxes each year by using offshore accounts. $100B?

 

The President is trying to change legislation to crack down on this scam. It costs a state like Texas about $9B per year that gets shifted to its taxpayers.

 

Link? I have never seen any credible source that had that number in it as they just don't know.

I come from a long line of steel workers on both sides of my family going back five or six generations. I too had the option of becoming a steel worker. I tried it two of the four summers I was in college when the local steel mill actually hired summer workers. The money was great for a college kid, but I couldn't imagine doing it for 30+ years like my dad and granddads and great granddads did. I saved 90% of my money those summers to help pay for college. In the years the steel mill wasn't hiring, I cut grass, worked at the Census Bureau for just above minimum wage, cut tobacco, put up hay, did odd jobs, cut more grass, and did just about anything I could do to generate income. When I did go back to school I had to find a part-time job to pay my bills. I worked as a security guard, unloading trucks for UPS, at a jewelry store, bagging groceries and stocking shelves, as a janitor, blah, blah, blah...

 

All in all, I had over 20 jobs in four years just to get through college. Many weeks I would put in over 40 hours on a paying job (or jobs) while being a full time student. And even then I had to pay back student loans for over 10 years before I had them paid off completely.

 

Over the past quarter century, I have averaged 60-80 hour work weeks, with occasional 90+ hour weeks. I am hardly wealthy, and cannot quit working without my family suffering a significant loss. Throughout this time, I have been told I have an "unfair advantage". It beats me what "advantage" I've had other than good health and a willingness to bust my tail for my family. I certainly don't consider it "unfair". Now I'm told I have to pay even more for the "unfair advantage" my hard work has given me.

 

If this is true, this is no longer the America I was raised to believe in... nor is it the America that existed for over 180 years before I was born.

 

When half our population doesn't pay federal taxes on their income, and that half gets to vote for politicians who promise they will stick it to the "rich guys" so those who don't pay taxes can get more stuff... we're screwed.

 

Class warfare, envy, jealousy, bitterness and strife are gifts straight from the pit of hell... and anyone who promotes them is doing work for the wrong team. :thumb:

 

Amen Brother! :notworthy:

I come from a long line of steel workers on both sides of my family going back five or six generations. I too had the option of becoming a steel worker. I tried it two of the four summers I was in college when the local steel mill actually hired summer workers. The money was great for a college kid, but I couldn't imagine doing it for 30+ years like my dad and granddads and great granddads did. I saved 90% of my money those summers to help pay for college. In the years the steel mill wasn't hiring, I cut grass, worked at the Census Bureau for just above minimum wage, cut tobacco, put up hay, did odd jobs, cut more grass, and did just about anything I could do to generate income. When I did go back to school I had to find a part-time job to pay my bills. I worked as a security guard, unloading trucks for UPS, at a jewelry store, bagging groceries and stocking shelves, as a janitor, blah, blah, blah...

 

All in all, I had over 20 jobs in four years just to get through college. Many weeks I would put in over 40 hours on a paying job (or jobs) while being a full time student. And even then I had to pay back student loans for over 10 years before I had them paid off completely.

 

Over the past quarter century, I have averaged 60-80 hour work weeks, with occasional 90+ hour weeks. I am hardly wealthy, and cannot quit working without my family suffering a significant loss. Throughout this time, I have been told I have an "unfair advantage". It beats me what "advantage" I've had other than good health and a willingness to bust my tail for my family. I certainly don't consider it "unfair". Now I'm told I have to pay even more for the "unfair advantage" my hard work has given me.

 

If this is true, this is no longer the America I was raised to believe in... nor is it the America that existed for over 180 years before I was born.

 

When half our population doesn't pay federal taxes on their income, and that half gets to vote for politicians who promise they will stick it to the "rich guys" so those who don't pay taxes can get more stuff... we're screwed.

 

Class warfare, envy, jealousy, bitterness and strife are gifts straight from the pit of hell... and anyone who promotes them is doing work for the wrong team. :thumb:

 

 

I applaud you, but I feel you are wrong in some ways. I've worked my butt off too, and I've done OK. Nothing like you, I suspect, but I didn't go to college. I worked several jobs, and I did it for almost 20 years while raising my kids. There was no opportunity to go back to school. I was lucky in many times in my life, the first of which is to fall into the industry I work in.

 

But there are many people out there who work their butts off and work multiple jobs, and don't get very far. Maybe some of it is a lack of luck, or a lack of God-given ability. But, I know a lot of people, GOOD people, who work very hard to fall into the very lower end of the "middle class". You don't have to be below the poverty line to need some relief.

 

I refuse to feel that wanting more for those who have less is a bad thing. It's not just about "me" (figuratively). There's a bigger picture. And it's easy to pigeon hole a whole demographic based upon the worst-case scenarios. But it's not a fair depiction, and someone has to defend those who are honest, hard-working people who have felt no relief as their wages have stagnated, their jobs often disappeared, prices rising in all areas. Without a voice, they will go unheard. There a champions for the poor, and the rich obviously have their champions. There's no voice for the majority, which lie in various levels in-between.