Vladimir Radmanovic

 

2008-09 Statistics

 

PPG

6.8

RPG

2.80

APG

0.9

EFF

+ 7.32

 

Wally Szczerbiak

2008-09 Statistics

 

PPG

6.6

RPG

2.80

APG

0.9

EFF

+ 6.86

Zydrunas Ilgauskas

 

2008-09 Statistics

 

PPG

13.8

RPG

7.10

APG

1.5

EFF

+ 16.57

 

Andrew Bynum

 

2008-09 Statistics

 

PPG

12.7

RPG

7.70

APG

1.6

EFF

+ 16.77

Anderson Varejao

 

2008-09 Statistics

 

PPG

9.2

RPG

7.10

APG

0.9

EFF

+ 13.64

 

Pau Gasol

 

2008-09 Statistics

 

PPG

17.7

RPG

9.30

APG

3.5

EFF

+ 23.41

We already all know Kobe and Lebron's stats. Congrats Lebron took a decent team to the Finals in a very mediocre Eastern Conference. hang your hat on that and Kobe will hang his on his 3 rings. As for the Olympic thing before. It was very well known that Kobe took a different role on that team and was their "defensive stopper". Who did they go to in the Gold medal game in the 4th quarter? Kobe the best offensive player in the game. He willed that team to victory down the stretch hitting shot after shot. I think he had 14 or so. To put it simply Lebron doesn't have close to killer instinct that Kobe has and IMO he won't be as good as Kobe or MJ for that matter until he gets it. If you wanna go by numbers then neither of them are even close to being the best player ever. You can give me all the stats you want but when it comes down to comparing GREAT players its intangibles for me. Things that you can't teach and things that can't be learned and being clutch is one of those.

Okay, #1 lets not even compare any of the Cavs Bigs to the Lakers. Sure Varajao and Big Ben can rebound but their points are strickly what LeBron leaves them. As for the Mo Williams stats, sure his are better, LeBron sets him up for 3's which he can hit, and I's say he plays many more minutes per game than Fisher is needed to when both teams are healthy. Why compare Wally and Vladamir? How about Odom and some one relevant like Delonte West? I don't care who starts (which Wally doesn't). D West is the starting 2 for the Cavs, and he is being replaced by Sasha Pavlovic right now as Delonte is hurt.

Matchups should have read

C-Bynum vs Big Z- Bynum easily

PF- Gasol vs Ben Wallace- do we even need to discuss this

SF- Radmonvic (sense he does start) vs. LeBron- LBJ23

SG- Kobe vs Delonte West- KOBE

PG- Fisher vs. Mo Williams- Push, but Mo Williams as he is younger

 

Off the Bench

Lakers- Odom, Vujacic, Ariza, Walton, Farmar

Cavs- Varajao, JJ Hickson, Pavlovic, Boobie Gibson, Wally.

 

That is a run away for the Lakers. Odom would be a starter and #2 option most places. Vujacic and Ariza are really coming into their own. Walton and Farmar aren't great but better than the Cavs 9 and 10 in Hickson and Pavlovic. The Cavs bench is one of the worst in the NBA, if that was a starting line up the Thunder would make fun of them. Heck, UNC would be that 2nd five by 30. C'mon. Jodie Meeks and Patterson would be better to put into the game right now then Varajao or Gibson.

 

So supporting cast can be thrown out the window. There you go.

 

If you watched the Cavs, all their offensive stats feed off of LeBron. You can't say that about Gasol or Odom. Their numbers were good before Kobe, and would be good without him. Bynum is in the top handful of up and coming Centers. I would say the Cavs are better off at PG, but neither is all-star worthy and most would rather have Fisher in the playoffs.

If you took LeBron off the Cavs then they would be battling the Thunder and the Wizards for ping pong balls in the lottery. Take Kobe out of the lineup and the Lakers aren't a title threat, but it's still a potential playoff team.

 

As for intagibles, do you mean "LIKE MAKING YOUR TEAMMATES BETTER?" Or hustling down the floor to block a shot? Or going off on the Pistons for like 35 straight points. Being unselfish and dumping the ball to a teammate when he could score just as easily. LeBron has a killer instinct he just doesn't get a chance to show it much.

 

And as for the "weak" eastern conference haven't they won 3 of the last 5 titles? This isn't 2002 anymore, the East may not be as strong as the West but there are clearly teams that could win the whole league championship in the East. With no team being that dominant, Any of 3 Eastern Conference teams look to be ready, and probably about 4 or 5 Western teams look like they could do it.

I didn't do West because he is hurt. If Odom is your #2 your team is probably pretty bad. West is better overall and thats not debatable and it has been that way for a while. Right Kobe doesn't make his teammates better.

We already all know Kobe and Lebron's stats. Congrats Lebron took a decent team to the Finals in a very mediocre Eastern Conference. hang your hat on that and Kobe will hang his on his 3 rings. As for the Olympic thing before. It was very well known that Kobe took a different role on that team and was their "defensive stopper". Who did they go to in the Gold medal game in the 4th quarter? Kobe the best offensive player in the game. He willed that team to victory down the stretch hitting shot after shot. I think he had 14 or so. To put it simply Lebron doesn't have close to killer instinct that Kobe has and IMO he won't be as good as Kobe or MJ for that matter until he gets it. If you wanna go by numbers then neither of them are even close to being the best player ever. You can give me all the stats you want but when it comes down to comparing GREAT players its intangibles for me. Things that you can't teach and things that can't be learned and being clutch is one of those.

 

 

Well I think Shaq has a lot to say for those 3 rings as much as anything. Let's take a look at Kobe Bryant and the Los Angeles Lakers in the seasons that Shaq went to the Heat and, GASP. Kobe was on his own!

 

2004-2005 Los Angeles Lakers

Regular Season Record: 34-38. No Playoffs

Lets take a look at their roster. Which I will concede is the closest to being as bad as the Cavaliers have today.

Kobe Bryant, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Devean George, Chucky Atkins, Chris Mihm, Jumaine Jones, Tierre Jones, Brian Grant, Slava Medvadenko, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Tony Bobbitt, Vlade Divac, and Kareem Rush. That is a pretty pathetic roster. But I will say this, LeBron has never played with anyone as good as Caron Butler or Lamar Odom. that's not debatable. LeBron has never played with an All-Star. Kobe has even when his teams were garbage and another thing.

 

In 05-06

The Lakers went 45-37, and lost to the Suns in the first round of the Playoffs in 7 after blowing a 3-1 lead. Pretty much the same team other than the additions of superstars like Kwame Brown, and Smush Parker. It was also Bynum's rookie year.

In 06-07

The Lakers went 42-40 and a 4-1 one and done to the Suns again. Bynum began to come into his own and they were on the verge to being decent again.

Then last year 07-08

57-25 and made it to the finals and seem to maybe be able to win the title but then they got embarrassed by the Celtics in Game 6 of the finals.

 

So that is what Kobe has done with out bigtime help-ala Shaq-and LeBron has took a team to the finals, in a bad Eastern Conference or what have you. and he has won more playoff series' than Kobe with considerably less

It's like you guys just throw out Kobe's 3 rings like he didn't win them. Who cares if Shaq was on his team? Big Z is better than any player that was on any of those teams so that not true at all.:lol: :lol: That roster isn't even close to being as good as the Cavs roster. You have to be kidding me. I'm glad Lebron made it to the Finals. We are giving out prizes for 2nd place now? Keep hating. Maybe just maybe if Lebron wins 1, I will put him in the discussion. Until then no dice.

I didn't do West because he is hurt. If Odom is your #2 your team is probably pretty bad. West is better overall and thats not debatable and it has been that way for a while. Right Kobe doesn't make his teammates better.

 

Who has he ever made better? Don't say Bynum, because he was compared to Shaq when he was drafted. And he is just now coming into his own. And Kobe doesnt make him better because he doesn't throw him oops, set him up for dunks. LeBron plays with garbage, but has he ever complained about the cast around him? No. Kobe has been on record before Kupchak went and got Gasol as saying he wanted to leave LA. That's a heck of an intangible Kobe has there. That's a heck of a teammate right there.

 

LeBron was ecstatic-I repeat ECSTATIC-when he got Mo Williams. What would he do if he had, Bynum, Gasol, Caron Butler, Odom or heck, even Derek Fisher.

Who has he ever made better? Don't say Bynum, because he was compared to Shaq when he was drafted. And he is just now coming into his own. And Kobe doesnt make him better because he doesn't throw him oops, set him up for dunks. LeBron plays with garbage, but has he ever complained about the cast around him? No. Kobe has been on record before Kupchak went and got Gasol as saying he wanted to leave LA. That's a heck of an intangible Kobe has there. That's a heck of a teammate right there.

 

LeBron was ecstatic-I repeat ECSTATIC-when he got Mo Williams. What would he do if he had, Bynum, Gasol, Caron Butler, Odom or heck, even Derek Fisher.

 

I'm done with this nonsense. Kobe wanted them to get someone in there to help them win or send him to winner. Granted it he might have done it in the wrong way but who can fault him for wanting to win.Lebron should be happy about Mo he is a very good PG to have. If you don't think Kobe makes them better I don't know what to say really. Maybe you just don't know basketball. Look up Big Z's numbers they are pretty close to Pau's for his career.

It's like you guys just throw out Kobe's 3 rings like he didn't win them. Who cares if Shaq was on his team? Big Z is better than any player that was on any of those teams so that not true at all.:lol: :lol: That roster isn't even close to being as good as the Cavs roster. You have to be kidding me. I'm glad Lebron made it to the Finals. We are giving out prizes for 2nd place now? Keep hating. Maybe just maybe if Lebron wins 1, I will put him in the discussion. Until then no dice.

 

Yeah, you're right. You got me. Shaq isn't the most dominant big man of all-time. Who am I kidding? Big Z is soooooo much better than Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. Big Z who has more knee surgeries in his career than his scoring average. Give me a break. Come back when you have a legitimate argument and if you don't shaq is a good player that you can just toss aside. You should go to YouTube and watch some Lakers highlights from the Kobe/Shaq era. You're right Kupchak should dump Gasol and Bynum for Big Z and Wally, and that beast Anderson Varajeo

 

:ohbrother:

Your arguing for a guy who has won nothing in his career..

 

AI took Philly to a championship with nobody.. Is he in this discussion too?

 

When/ if bron wins one he'll be in that discussion.. Until them, nope..

Yeah, you're right. You got me. Shaq isn't the most dominant big man of all-time. Who am I kidding? Big Z is soooooo much better than Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. Big Z who has more knee surgeries in his career than his scoring average. Give me a break. Come back when you have a legitimate argument and if you don't shaq is a good player that you can just toss aside. You should go to YouTube and watch some Lakers highlights from the Kobe/Shaq era. You're right Kupchak should dump Gasol and Bynum for Big Z and Wally, and that beast Anderson Varajeo

 

:ohbrother:

I was talking about the teams after Shaq. Give me Big Z over Odom all day if I need a big guy. I don't need to see highlights on when Shaq was there. I saw them win 3 rings already. :thumb:

I am still not buying the whole "LeBron has never had a supporting cast" argument and that Kobe is surrounded with great players but cannot get it done. Both are outstanding players that by there presence are able to elevate the games of their teammates. Just how Jordan did. Pippen is not near a top 30 player without MJ.

 

Both the Cavs and Lakers have put together a supporting cast to their superstar player that works tremendously with their talents. If anything, I think Kobe would benefit a lot more with a Pippen type player than LeBron would. Remember, Pippen was the primary floor general for the Bulls' teams. That is what LeBron is with the Cavs right now.

 

I couldn't agree more.:thumb:

I'm done with this nonsense. Kobe wanted them to get someone in there to help them win or send him to winner. Granted it he might have done it in the wrong way but who can fault him for wanting to win.Lebron should be happy about Mo he is a very good PG to have. If you don't think Kobe makes them better I don't know what to say really. Maybe you just don't know basketball. Look up Big Z's numbers they are pretty close to Pau's for his career.

 

I don't know what I'm talking about? Gasol averages 18 points and 8.6 rebounds a game. Wilt, oh wait my bad Big Z averages 14 and 7.9 for his career. And let me name all of the PG's in the NBA that are better than Mo:

 

Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, Devin Harris, Jason Kidd (still), Rajon Rondo, Jameer Nelson, Calderon, Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, Derrick Rose, Rudy Fernandez, Marbury if he would quit crying, Gilbert Arenas, Monta Ellis, Rodney Stuckey, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, Mike Bibby, and heck he is probably on par with Andre Miller, or TJ Ford. That is at least 15 indisputable players and some I will let you argue. So a Very Good Point guard for me is top 10. That and doesnt even count the good players that can handle the rock like Kobe, LeBron, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Martin, and Tracy McGrady, Barbosa,