August 24, 200818 yr RM, if it were only as simple as you make it sound. If it were that easy we wouldn't have the problem we have now in so many neighborhoods across this country. People have tried to take action to no avail in many of these neighborhoods, they are trying to take action in Colerain now, but I'd venture to say they will lose that battle. Like it or not, Section 8 is a real and growing problem. Section 8 isn't a real and growing problem. Poverty, and in some cases, abuse of the system, & bad landlords are the problem. Chances are, if a landlord kept his property tidy and the people who lived there came and went without incident, you'd never even know whether they were Section 8 or not. But, like many people, you've decided that Section 8 in and of itself is the problem. On the otherhand, a partying family with rustbucket cars could move in, and you'd assume they were Section 8 because the property was approved for Section 8.
August 24, 200818 yr Author Section 8 isn't a real and growing problem. Poverty, and in some cases, abuse of the system, & bad landlords are the problem. Chances are, if a landlord kept his property tidy and the people who lived there came and went without incident, you'd never even know whether they were Section 8 or not. But, like many people, you've decided that Section 8 in and of itself is the problem. On the otherhand, a partying family with rustbucket cars could move in, and you'd assume they were Section 8 because the property was approved for Section 8.RM, it most definitely is a real and growing problem. I hate to break this to you, but it's the tenets usually, not the landlord that trashes the dwelling. Also, it isn't the landlord that's committing all the crime in these neighborhoods, it's the low life tenet. You should really talk to some of the people from the West Side of Cincy that, at one time, lived in a nice neighborhood until Section 8 came along and ruined it.
August 24, 200818 yr RM, it most definitely is a real and growing problem. I hate to break this to you, but it's the tenets usually, not the landlord that trashes the dwelling. Also, it isn't the landlord that's committing all the crime in these neighborhoods, it's the low life tenet. You should really talk to some of the people from the West Side of Cincy that, at one time, lived in a nice neighborhood until Section 8 came along and ruined it. You are grouping a group of people together and that is unfair. Is every CEO a crook because the guys at Enron and others are? Is every teacher a pedophile because some have turned out to be? Is every politician a crook because some have turned out to be? Sure there are some bad people that have taken advantage of the situation and live in Section 8 housing. But there are some bad people that are involved in unspeakable crimes living in the rich areas of NKY and Cincy. I will go out on the limb and say there are some crooks living in Ft. Thomas. It might be white collar crime or they may lead a drug ring in the area. I would NOT cast a cloud to say all living in that area are the problem.
August 24, 200818 yr Author You are grouping a group of people together and that is unfair. Is every CEO a crook because the guys at Enron and others are? Is every teacher a pedophile because some have turned out to be? Is every politician a crook because some have turned out to be? Sure there are some bad people that have taken advantage of the situation and live in Section 8 housing. But there are some bad people that are involved in unspeakable crimes living in the rich areas of NKY and Cincy. I will go out on the limb and say there are some crooks living in Ft. Thomas. It might be white collar crime or they may lead a drug ring in the area. I would NOT cast a cloud to say all living in that area are the problem. I realize that not all are like that. The problem is, they're the ones ruining for everyone. How would you feel if the houses on either side of you became Section 8? Would you welcome it or would you hold your breath and pray that you wouldn't get one of the trouble families? Would you even want Section 8 next to you? Be honest.
August 24, 200818 yr Why? Jesus said himself, you will always have the poor. I don't think poverty can be solved. You know that using that quote in this context is theologically dishonest - Jesus didn't cure leprosy, but he did heal those he came in contact with. The Gospel of Jesus is a social gospel, always has been, always will be. The story of the good samaritan is a prime example. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR - Not your RICH neighbor, not your AMBITIOUS neighbor, not the neighbor who has the same values as you. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR whoever it happens to be. Whatever you do to the least of these you have done to me - Kick them out of your neighborhood, you have kicked Christ out of your neighborhood. Mt. 5 - the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them Mt. 19:21 - . . . If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor Luke 6:20 - . . .Blessed are you who are poor for yours is the kingdom of heaven Luke 14:13 But when you give a bnquet, invite the poort, the crippled, the lame and the blind Amos 4:5 Hear this word you cows of Bashan who are on Mount Samaria who OPPRESS THE POOR, who CRUSH THE NEEDY . . . the Lord has sworn by his holiness the time is surely coming upon you when they shall take you away with hooks Isaiah 25:4ff For you have been a refuge to the poor, a refuge to the needy in their distress Matthew 25 - I was hungry and you gave me something to eat 1 Thess 5:14 Support the weak Luke 6:38 If you lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 1 COR. 10:24 I really like this one for this message board Let no man seek his own, but every man, another's wealth" Sounds like the democrats:thumb: Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto ALL men I can find more if need be.:sssh:
August 24, 200818 yr Author Must we turn this into a religious thread, it certainly wasn't my intent.
August 24, 200818 yr Must we turn this into a religious thread, it certainly wasn't my intent. Where should I get my guidance on how to treat the poor? Marx? Gonna Rise UP Engels? Gonna overthrow Smith? Iron law of wages Keynes? Pull themselves up Buddha? Eliminate their desires Gandhi? take care of them Carnegie? Rockefeller? Kennedy? Hitler? (he didn't much like the poor either - thought the homeless and gypsies should be moved to another place as well) Your statements have just so flabbergasted me that someone would say those things outloud. How do I talk about this in pure political or economic terms. More than any think it is a social issue.
August 24, 200818 yr Author Where should I get my guidance on how to treat the poor? Marx? Gonna Rise UP Engels? Gonna overthrow Smith? Iron law of wages Keynes? Pull themselves up Buddha? Eliminate their desires Gandhi? take care of them Carnegie? Rockefeller? Kennedy? Hitler? (he didn't much like the poor either - thought the homeless and gypsies should be moved to another place as well) Your statements have just so flabbergasted me that someone would say those things outloud. How do I talk about this in pure political or economic terms. More than any think it is a social issue. See, you're trying to turn this into a "how to treat the poor" issue when that's not what it's about at all. It's about the dregs of society ruining neighborhoods. Do you want any of these slime-balls living next door to you? Honest answer only please.
August 24, 200818 yr See, you're trying to turn this into a "how to treat the poor" issue when that's not what it's about at all. It's about the dregs of society ruining neighborhoods. Do you want any of these slime-balls living next door to you? Honest answer only please. It is not a matter of what I want you see, or what I desire. I know people who are much better than me who go to live in struggling communities to see how they can help. I know people who teach in Alternative Schools because they love those kids (who may be on drugs, and violent, and oppositionally defiant) as opposed to going to teach where the rich kids go . . . rich kids with involved parents. Some of my closest friends have lived in Section 8 housing as has my sister and I am offended for them and for her. I would love to have my sister living beside me in a house that I bought but used for section 8 folks. I would also love for my friends to live beside me. I would hope that I would never work to oust them, but to assimilate them. I would also hope that I would love them unconditionally.
August 24, 200818 yr You know that using that quote in this context is theologically dishonest - Jesus didn't cure leprosy, but he did heal those he came in contact with. The Gospel of Jesus is a social gospel, always has been, always will be. The story of the good samaritan is a prime example. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR - Not your RICH neighbor, not your AMBITIOUS neighbor, not the neighbor who has the same values as you. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR whoever it happens to be. Whatever you do to the least of these you have done to me - Kick them out of your neighborhood, you have kicked Christ out of your neighborhood. Mt. 5 - the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them Mt. 19:21 - . . . If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor Luke 6:20 - . . .Blessed are you who are poor for yours is the kingdom of heaven Luke 14:13 But when you give a bnquet, invite the poort, the crippled, the lame and the blind Amos 4:5 Hear this word you cows of Bashan who are on Mount Samaria who OPPRESS THE POOR, who CRUSH THE NEEDY . . . the Lord has sworn by his holiness the time is surely coming upon you when they shall take you away with hooks Isaiah 25:4ff For you have been a refuge to the poor, a refuge to the needy in their distress Matthew 25 - I was hungry and you gave me something to eat 1 Thess 5:14 Support the weak Luke 6:38 If you lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 1 COR. 10:24 I really like this one for this message board Let no man seek his own, but every man, another's wealth" Sounds like the democrats:thumb: Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto ALL men I can find more if need be.:sssh: And yet what did he tell his disciples when they would come upon people that did not want their help..... Matthew 10:13-15 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Mark 6:10-12 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." Luke 9:4-6 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere. I agree with you that we should try but also there comes a point that they don't want our help. We can continue to try but also Jesus has said there is a point that we shake the dust off our feet and leave the town as a testimony against them. Where that line is, I honestly don't know. Yes, ABSOLUTELY YES, we need to do more. Churches need to do more. People need to do more. Government should do more. Businesses should do more. But there is a time when the people have to help themselves. I ran into a lady that I knew who wanted a few things for her child. She picked up a 2nd job to be able to afford those things. Now, you tell someone they should work 2 jobs and they would be offended and say that one job should be enough. I have worked summer jobs because my teaching salary didn't cover what my family wanted to do. At some point, those people have to ALSO take responsibility for the plight they are in. I think that is RTS' point. Some of those that are causing the issue want the situation to be as is because it allows them to do what they want rather than what they should do. It is easier for SOME to steal, deal drugs than possibly have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make it out of that situation. We should honestly help those that are trying to get out of that situation but for those who just want the help and not work themselves, I am not sure that this is not a situation that we shake the dust from our feet. It might be.
August 24, 200818 yr Author It is not a matter of what I want you see, or what I desire. I know people who are much better than me who go to live in struggling communities to see how they can help. I know people who teach in Alternative Schools because they love those kids (who may be on drugs, and violent, and oppositionally defiant) as opposed to going to teach where the rich kids go . . . rich kids with involved parents. Some of my closest friends have lived in Section 8 housing as has my sister and I am offended for them and for her. I would love to have my sister living beside me in a house that I bought but used for section 8 folks. I would also love for my friends to live beside me. I would hope that I would never work to oust them, but to assimilate them. I would also hope that I would love them unconditionally. You're skating the issue. I'm not talking about your sister, I'm talking about the numerous dregs that make Section 8 unattractive to any neighborhood. So I ask again, truthfully, would you want any of these people living next to you?
August 24, 200818 yr You're skating the issue. I'm not talking about your sister, I'm talking about the numerous dregs that make Section 8 unattractive to any neighborhood. So I ask again, truthfully, would you want any of these people living next to you? This is a very hard statement to make because it is an indictment on Christians. You would have to say YES if you were a Christian because Jesus hung out with the dregs of his culture and it was one of the things that the religious leaders disliked about him. They felt the Son of God should be hanging out with them the religious leaders and couldn't see how Jesus would hang out with the dregs. I fall short of this every single day.
August 24, 200818 yr Author This is a very hard statement to make because it is an indictment on Christians. You would have to say YES if you were a Christian because Jesus hung out with the dregs of his culture and it was one of the things that the religious leaders disliked about him. They felt the Son of God should be hanging out with them the religious leaders and couldn't see how Jesus would hang out with the dregs. I fall short of this every single day. I realize this, but it makes my point about the biggest problem with Section 8. Those that want to defend it don't want it anywhere near their home. Don't you find that rather hypocritical?
August 24, 200818 yr And yet what did he tell his disciples when they would come upon people that did not want their help..... Matthew 10:13-15 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Mark 6:10-12 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." Luke 9:4-6 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere. I agree with you that we should try but also there comes a point that they don't want our help. We can continue to try but also Jesus has said there is a point that we shake the dust off our feet and leave the town as a testimony against them. Where that line is, I honestly don't know. Yes, ABSOLUTELY YES, we need to do more. Churches need to do more. People need to do more. Government should do more. Businesses should do more. But there is a time when the people have to help themselves. I ran into a lady that I knew who wanted a few things for her child. She picked up a 2nd job to be able to afford those things. Now, you tell someone they should work 2 jobs and they would be offended and say that one job should be enough. I have worked summer jobs because my teaching salary didn't cover what my family wanted to do. At some point, those people have to ALSO take responsibility for the plight they are in. I think that is RTS' point. Some of those that are causing the issue want the situation to be as is because it allows them to do what they want rather than what they should do. It is easier for SOME to steal, deal drugs than possibly have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make it out of that situation. We should honestly help those that are trying to get out of that situation but for those who just want the help and not work themselves, I am not sure that this is not a situation that we shake the dust from our feet. It might be. Again, you know he is not talking about people who need economic help, he is talking about people who do not want to hear the good news. To suggest that people don't want help is silly. THAT IS WHY THEY COMPLETED TO FORM TO GET SECTION 8 HOUSING. They want help. Did your wife work when you worked the summer jobs?? or did she stay home a raised the kids? who stays home with kids if i am a single mother and I am working 2 jobs.
August 24, 200818 yr Author Again, you know he is not talking about people who need economic help, he is talking about people who do not want to hear the good news. To suggest that people don't want help is silly. THAT IS WHY THEY COMPLETED TO FORM TO GET SECTION 8 HOUSING. They want help. Did your wife work when you worked the summer jobs?? or did she stay home a raised the kids? who stays home with kids if i am a single mother and I am working 2 jobs. Do they ALL want help or do some of them just want another hand out? I'm still waiting for your answer to my question about them living next to you.
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