Poverty and Voting

[cch5432]

As we all, the top 50% of income earners in America pay 96% of the (income) taxes in this country.

 

I have a friend of mine that I drive to work who is surely in the bottom 50%. I was asking him about his political affiliation (he is very uninformed about politics) and he said he didn't really know what either side stands for.

 

From other conversations with him, I gathered some information. I asked him these questions:

 

Do you hate immigrants coming to this country and taking money back to their home country (Mexico)? Do believe that we should drill for oil in America? Do you hate high taxes?

 

All 3 questions he responded yes. I told him he was a conservative. But the final question got me thinking (as well as reading Leave Us Alone). If you were poor, why wouldn't you vote for the Democrats?

 

Knowing about economics, I understand that lower taxes (even though less entitlement programs) helps the poor more than those programs because of long-term economic growth, lower unemployment, more investment projects, entrepreneur opportunities, etc., and just raises the overall standard of life.

 

But if you were (or are) in that bottom 50%, why would you vote against free money? How do you get a poor person, who is getting handouts from the government, to switch sides?

[halfback20]

Handouts from the government? Some people need assistance, and I wouldn't always consider that a hand out.

 

I work with a lady who has 3 or 4 kids, and a disabled husband. She is the only income her family has and I would be willing to bet it isn't a lot of income. Is she accepting handouts because she needs and receives assistance? No, she is getting assistance because she's not in a great spot and is not as financially stable as many other people in this country. She was not blessed with a rich family or the same opportunities that others were. Most people on welfare are in fact working people. They are usually working the low paying minimum wage jobs, but they are working.

 

I don't like the way you worded your post. Not all poor people are just taking their handouts and sitting back and relaxing.

 

And how is it that if you do not like immigrants coming into America and taking the money back to Mexico/whatever other country they live in, you are conservative?

 

OBAMA'S PLAN ON IMMIGRATION

 

* Improve Our Immigration System: We must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.

* Bring People Out of the Shadows: Allow undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

* Work with Mexico: We need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.

 

link

[All Tell]

And by the same token not all poor people are hard working individuals who are just having a stretch of bad luck, yet current policies make no distinction.

[pigman]

So your friend works. Is he recieving government assistance? The example hb20 showed is more common than some people realize. My mother retired from state gov and my dad from IBM. My dad passed away in 2000 and before he did they adopted my two nieces. My mom is now 81 and struggling very much to raise these two girls. We help as much as possible and she is still barely making it. She was working a small part time job and had to quit or she would lose the girls medical card. So here you have two people that raised 5 of their own children without a single penny of help from the government and now it's all she can do to raise these two. Why would she not vote for someone that is at least offering some help?

[woodsrider]

So your friend works. Is he recieving government assistance? The example hb20 showed is more common than some people realize. My mother retired from state gov and my dad from IBM. My dad passed away in 2000 and before he did they adopted my two nieces. My mom is now 81 and struggling very much to raise these two girls. We help as much as possible and she is still barely making it. She was working a small part time job and had to quit or she would lose the girls medical card. So here you have two people that raised 5 of their own children without a single penny of help from the government and now it's all she can do to raise these two. Why would she not vote for someone that is at least offering some help?

No, I think people realize how common it is but the problem is for every one case like that you see ten that are milking the system. How many people do you see at the grocery using food stamps with a cell phone hanging on their belt. Then they go out and get in a brand new car. Or they are using food stamps and buying beer and cigs with cash.

 

My wifes best friend quit her job when she got preganat with their first child. They didn't have much because she wouldn't work but were making it. They then up and decide to have a second child. At this point they decide to go on wick and get food stamps. She has rationalized by saying those programs are for people like them. Even through she more then capable of working she chooses to take the hand out and sit her butt at home. I can barely look at her when she comes over.

[cch5432]

Handouts from the government? Some people need assistance, and I wouldn't always consider that a hand out.

 

I work with a lady who has 3 or 4 kids, and a disabled husband. She is the only income her family has and I would be willing to bet it isn't a lot of income. Is she accepting handouts because she needs and receives assistance? No, she is getting assistance because she's not in a great spot and is not as financially stable as many other people in this country. She was not blessed with a rich family or the same opportunities that others were. Most people on welfare are in fact working people. They are usually working the low paying minimum wage jobs, but they are working.

 

I don't like the way you worded your post. Not all poor people are just taking their handouts and sitting back and relaxing.

 

And how is it that if you do not like immigrants coming into America and taking the money back to Mexico/whatever other country they live in, you are conservative?

 

OBAMA'S PLAN ON IMMIGRATION

 

* Improve Our Immigration System: We must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.

* Bring People Out of the Shadows: Allow undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

* Work with Mexico: We need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.

 

link

My post was not intended to upset you, I was more speaking towards how do you convince someone who is getting money from the government to vote for the party that wants to reduce government.

 

And my wording was poor, but my friend does not like the illegals who are working here currently to have to leave.

So your friend works. Is he recieving government assistance? The example hb20 showed is more common than some people realize. My mother retired from state gov and my dad from IBM. My dad passed away in 2000 and before he did they adopted my two nieces. My mom is now 81 and struggling very much to raise these two girls. We help as much as possible and she is still barely making it. She was working a small part time job and had to quit or she would lose the girls medical card. So here you have two people that raised 5 of their own children without a single penny of help from the government and now it's all she can do to raise these two. Why would she not vote for someone that is at least offering some help?

To be honest, I am unsure if he specifically is receiving government assistance, I did not ask him.

[The Professor]

No, I think people realize how common it is but the problem is for every one case like that you see ten that are milking the system. How many people do you see at the grocery using food stamps with a cell phone hanging on their belt. Then they go out and get in a brand new car. Or they are using food stamps and buying beer and cigs with cash.

 

My wifes best friend quit her job when she got preganat with their first child. They didn't have much because she wouldn't work but were making it. They then up and decide to have a second child. At this point they decide to go on wick and get food stamps. She has rationalized by saying those programs are for people like them. Even through she more then capable of working she chooses to take the hand out and sit her butt at home. I can barely look at her when she comes over.

I think the part I bolded is fairly true. Too many people have got so adjusted to 'welfare as a way of life' that it is simply passed on from one generation to another within their families, with little or no motivation to better themselves. The plan is to "get on the draw" whenever they reach adulthood, just like daddy did. We do have a sizable percentage that leave our county and move elsewhere for jobs, but there are also a sizable number that stay. And jobs, at least the good paying ones, are in short supply in my area.

 

And I see the point cch5432 is trying to make. The county I live in is one of the poorest in the nation...at one time it was ranked around 3rd or 4th...but it is a solid Republican County, over 80%. One would think with all the entitlement programs going back to the LBJ years in the White House, that reach into many Eastern Kentucky counties, that there would be more registered Democrats. I've always associated that party with taxes, welfare, and other entitlement programs.

[halfback20]

And by the same token not all poor people are hard working individuals who are just having a stretch of bad luck, yet current policies make no distinction.

 

Fact of the matter is, most people on welfare are working. However there is a myth that a lot of people choose to believe, and that is that being on welfare equals being lazy.

[the mathemagician]

As we all, the top 50% of income earners in America pay 96% of the (income) taxes in this country.

 

I have a friend of mine that I drive to work who is surely in the bottom 50%. I was asking him about his political affiliation (he is very uninformed about politics) and he said he didn't really know what either side stands for.

 

From other conversations with him, I gathered some information. I asked him these questions:

 

"Do you hate immigrants coming to this country and taking money back to their home country (Mexico)? Do believe that we should drill for oil in America? Do you hate high taxes?"

 

All 3 questions he responded yes. I told him he was a conservative. But the final question got me thinking (as well as reading Leave Us Alone). If you were poor, why wouldn't you vote for the Democrats?

 

Knowing about economics, I understand that lower taxes (even though less entitlement programs) helps the poor more than those programs because of long-term economic growth, lower unemployment, more investment projects, entrepreneur opportunities, etc., and just raises the overall standard of life.

 

But if you were (or are) in that bottom 50%, why would you vote against free money? How do you get a poor person, who is getting handouts from the government, to switch sides?

 

 

 

You have a great career ahead of you as a conservative pollster. Having much knowledge of statistics and polling, I know how important question wording has to do with interpreting polling data. Hell, you almost had me answering yes to those questions. I could have asked the same questions,with different wording, and gotten three very different answers:

 

"Do you have a problem with immigrants having an opportunity to come to this country and make some money to help their impoverished families back home? "

 

 

"Do you think the America should be allowed to drill for oil in the pristine Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, possibly upsetting the migration patterns of Alaskan Caribou and adversely affecting the habitat of other wildlife as well?"

 

"Do you have a problem with wealthier Americans having to pay their fair share of taxes, even taxed at a much highrer rate, if it benefits those in lower income groups like yourself?"

 

 

I feel fairly confientthat your friend would have answered "No" to each of my questions. People can EASILY be led to answer in the direction that the biased pollster wants them to answer. That's why you have to look very carefully at question wording in polls. And, of course, there are various other elements as well that can lead to biased poll results.

[cch5432]

Fact of the matter is, most people on welfare are working. However there is a myth that a lot of people choose to believe, and that is that being on welfare equals being lazy.

I can't speak for everyone of course, but every job I have had thusfar I have been working with people who are definently in need of money, not sure if on welfare or not. I worked side by side with a single mother of two kids, who told me how badly she needed the hours and to be full time because she had been laid off her previous job. Plenty people said they needed the hours. Of the 25 or so of us, though, when our manager would say we could leave 2 hours early, about 3 of us would stay.

 

I am not trying to base my thoughts on all poor people on this, but it has an effect on me.

You have a great career ahead of you as a conservative pollster. Having much knowledge of statistics and polling, I know how important question wording has to do with interpreting polling data. Hell, you almost had me answering yes to those questions. I could have asked the same questions,with different wording, and gotten three very different answers:

 

"Do you have a problem with immigrants having an opportunity to come to this country and make some money to help their impoverished families back home? "

 

 

"Do you think the America should be allowed to drill for oil in the pristine Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, possibly upsetting the migration patterns of Alaskan Caribou and adversely affecting the habitat of other wildlife as well?"

 

"Do you have a problem with wealthier Americans having to pay their fair share of taxes, even taxed at a much highrer rate, if it benefits those in lower income groups like yourself?"

 

 

I feel fairly confientthat your friend would have answered "No" to each of my questions. People can EASILY be led to answer in the direction that the biased pollster wants them to answer. That's why you have to look very carefully at question wording in polls. And, of course, there are various other elements as well that can lead to biased poll results.

Good point. My wording was vague. But the point of my post is that, if you were in poverty, why wouldn't you vote Democrat? And how do we (speaking of conservatives) convince poor people to vote for them?

 

Because I honestly believe that economic ideas that are promoted as conservative are better for the poor, just the effects are more indirect.

Edited June 7, 2008 by cch5432

[halfback20]

I can't speak for everyone of course, but every job I have had thusfar I have been working with people who are definently in need of money, not sure if on welfare or not. I worked side by side with a single mother of two kids, who told me how badly she needed the hours and to be full time because she had been laid off her previous job. Plenty people said they needed the hours. Of the 25 or so of us, though, when our manager would say we could leave 2 hours early, about 3 of us would stay.

 

I am not trying to base my thoughts on all poor people on this, but it has an effect on me.

 

Good point. My wording was vague. But the point of my post is that, if you were in poverty, why wouldn't you vote Democrat? And how do we (speaking of conservatives) convince poor people to vote for them?

 

Because I honestly believe that economic ideas that are promoted as conservative are better for the poor, just the effects are more indirect.

 

Where I'm from, conservatives aren't having any problems getting the "poor vote". I do not come from what I would consider a "rich" county. There are a lot of poor people in my county however, most everyone is a registered republican.

[cch5432]

Where I'm from, conservatives aren't having any problems getting the "poor vote". I do not come from what I would consider a "rich" county. There are a lot of poor people in my county however, most everyone is a registered republican.

Which brings up another interesting thing I thought of.

 

First of all, I don't like only focusing on social issues while voting. But, let's be honest here, a lot of poor people are uneducated. They simply won't (or can't) understand some complicated economics. And if a person believes that there beliefs (in this case, I mean conservative economic policies) are better for the poor, is it really that wrong to focus on social issues, because you can convince them in that regard?

 

I know it is misleading, and can be obviously dishonest, but is it wrong?

[NEXT]

Welfare system is broke.

 

Speaking form experience of having family on welfare who deserve it and having some who do not deserve it I'd say 4 in 10 actually work or are disabled and deserve the assistance they get, the rest.................

[rockmom]

I can't speak for everyone of course, but every job I have had thusfar I have been working with people who are definently in need of money, not sure if on welfare or not. I worked side by side with a single mother of two kids, who told me how badly she needed the hours and to be full time because she had been laid off her previous job. Plenty people said they needed the hours. Of the 25 or so of us, though, when our manager would say we could leave 2 hours early, about 3 of us would stay.

 

I am not trying to base my thoughts on all poor people on this, but it has an effect on me.

 

Good point. My wording was vague. But the point of my post is that, if you were in poverty, why wouldn't you vote Democrat? And how do we (speaking of conservatives) convince poor people to vote for them?

 

Because I honestly believe that economic ideas that are promoted as conservative are better for the poor, just the effects are more indirect.

 

Some flaws I feel are in your generalization:

 

Poor people are not necessarily looking for a handout.

Poverty doesn't necessarily equate to unenlightend, or ill-informed.

Democrat doesn't equate to "looking for a hand out", or even liberal.

 

I'm not going to go into all details, but my family is below the poverty line (meaning my mom & dad), and that's how we grew up. We never had assistance, but I'm sure we could have qualified. My family votes Democrat. My family doesn't approve of abuse of the system, and we definitely all know some who do.

 

It's disturbing to me, as well, that you used your friend in this sort of experiment, knowing that he was ill-informed. It just seems devious to me.

[NEXT]

Some flaws I feel are in your generalization:

 

Poor people are not necessarily looking for a handout.

Poverty doesn't necessarily equate to unenlightend, or ill-informed.

Democrat doesn't equate to "looking for a hand out", or even liberal.

 

I'm not going to go into all details, but my family is below the poverty line (meaning my mom & dad), and that's how we grew up. We never had assistance, but I'm sure we could have qualified. My family votes Democrat. My family doesn't approve of abuse of the system, and we definitely all know some who do.

 

It's disturbing to me, as well, that you used your friend in this sort of experiment, knowing that he was ill-informed. It just seems devious to me.

 

Yes it does, as Liberals think they know what is best for everyone.

 

You need socialist health care because you cannot make your own health care decisions.

 

 

They want the masses to accept handouts to become dependent on the government, therefore the government controls you.