Guess I'd have to know what a "gorilla stance" is to answer that!! :lol:

 

Picture a pitcher taking signals from the stretch position. His throwing arm is dangling to his side. I've always heard that called the "gorilla stance" and that its a balk in NFHS.

Picture a pitcher taking signals from the stretch position. His throwing arm is dangling to his side. I've always heard that called the "gorilla stance" and that its a balk in NFHS.

 

Why would that be a balk?

 

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if it has already been answered.

Why would that be a balk?

 

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if it has already been answered.

 

Its not in OBR but it is in FED. Not sure why.

Picture a pitcher taking signals from the stretch position. His throwing arm is dangling to his side. I've always heard that called the "gorilla stance" and that its a balk in NFHS.

 

Not a balk under MLB rules. And for the life of me, I can't see why it would be a balk under NFHS. Not saying that it isn't - I really don't know - but just can't see what advantage is being gained by the pitcher that you'd need to limit this action.

Not a balk under MLB rules. And for the life of me, I can't see why it would be a balk under NFHS. Not saying that it isn't - I really don't know - but just can't see what advantage is being gained by the pitcher that you'd need to limit this action.

 

The FED rule says the hand has to be at the side or in the glove.

The FED rule says the hand has to be at the side or in the glove.

 

Well now you've got me really confused. I thought your initial description of a "gorilla stance" was that the pitcher did have his throwing hand at his side. If his throwing hand was not either dangling at his side or in his glove, what other places could it be?

Well now you've got me really confused. I thought your initial description of a "gorilla stance" was that the pitcher did have his throwing hand at his side. If his throwing hand was not either dangling at his side or in his glove, what other places could it be?

 

Picture the following 3 positions while taking signs:

 

1. Throwing hand in glove.

2. Throwing hand at the side/back hip.

3. Pitcher bent over taking signs with throwing arm dangling straight down. Picture a pitcher dangling his arm trying to get it loose while taking signs. That's the "gorilla stance."

Picture the following 3 positions while taking signs:

 

1. Throwing hand in glove.

2. Throwing hand at the side/back hip.

3. Pitcher bent over taking signs with throwing arm dangling straight down. Picture a pitcher dangling his arm trying to get it loose while taking signs. That's the "gorilla stance."

 

Gotcha. I wasn't picturing the bending over part. Still unclear why FED would see the need to make this a balk. Balks are called because of some action deemed illegal because it either gives the pitcher an unfair advantage or improperly deceives the runner. Maybe I'm just not thinking this one through clearly, but I can't see any advantage gained by pitcher/deception to baserunner by this gorilla stance.

Gotcha. I wasn't picturing the bending over part. Still unclear why FED would see the need to make this a balk. Balks are called because of some action deemed illegal because it either gives the pitcher an unfair advantage or improperly deceives the runner. Maybe I'm just not thinking this one through clearly, but I can't see any advantage gained by pitcher/deception to baserunner by this gorilla stance.

 

Your question is one that many have. There seems to be a split amongst umps on whether to call it or not even though its in the rulebook and int he interpretations they receive. Some, who dislike it, are now calling it 100% of the time hoping that it will cause it to be reviewed after enough complaining.

We play at the 16U level and use MLB rules on sliding into the bases, as well as the delayed dead ball on balks (the mechanics that the umps use when they call this tend to immediately stop the pitcher and results in no pitch being thrown anyway). The re-entry rule for starters is obviously different, as is the avoidance of contact at the plate. Otherwise, however, it should be MLB rules. As I understand it, there is a big difference in balks between NFHS and MLB (a lot more instances of balks in NFHS). The tournaments we play in usually go by straight NFHS, though.

 

I have yet to see MLB rules on sliding into bases be used in anything lower than an 18U game. The reason usually cited is safety concerns. I think that oversliding the bag is very rarely called, but the MLB slide rule of "if you can reach the bag then the fielder is fair game" I have not seen at that level. Is this the slide rule that you use?

 

My point was with so many "exceptions" (I left quite a few other differences out, DH, roster batting, mound visits) the rules aren't really MLB rules. I hate summer games, as each tournament, team, etc. all wants to play by different rules. It is like shopping "a la carte". :lol: Let's see I'll have a MLB balk rule, the NCAA DH, and HS safety rules. Too bad they don't let us charge out the wazoo like restaurants for "a la carte" shopping. :irked:

Your question is one that many have. There seems to be a split amongst umps on whether to call it or not even though its in the rulebook and int he interpretations they receive. Some, who dislike it, are now calling it 100% of the time hoping that it will cause it to be reviewed after enough complaining.

 

The stance itself isn't the problem. It's the dangling of the arm. Not only does the arm dangling allow the pitcher to "hide" the ball, but it also give the illusion of starting a delivery. It is very difficult to explain, but if I could show it to you then you would understand how an advantage is being gained.

The stance itself isn't the problem. It's the dangling of the arm. Not only does the arm dangling allow the pitcher to "hide" the ball, but it also give the illusion of starting a delivery. It is very difficult to explain, but if I could show it to you then you would understand how an advantage is being gained.

 

I guess I would have to see what you're talking about. I can't picture how a dangling arm can hide the ball.

 

Secondly, the pitcher still has to come to the set position for a second so how can I , as a baserunner, be confused that he may be starting his delivery?

I guess I would have to see what you're talking about. I can't picture how a dangling arm can hide the ball.

 

Secondly, the pitcher still has to come to the set position for a second so how can I , as a baserunner, be confused that he may be starting his delivery?

 

As I said, kind of difficult to explain, but I'll try. First you must understand that I(the pitcher) am taking certain "liberties" with my delivery. With both shoulders facing the plate, my arm(and possibly the ball in hand) dangling at my side, and my left leg forward(RHP), not only can I hide the ball(from a runner on 1B), but I can literally use my body and shoulders to hide most of my right arm(as long as my arm is dangling somewhere by my side). Again, you must understand that it was a stance that was being abused and used to gain an advantage.

 

IMO, the stance itself shouldn't be illegal. The problem is that it created some very difficult calls for "less experienced" umpires, that is for the vast majority of umpires. IMO this is along the same lines as the "late swing" on a steal. There is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. But there are very few umpires in between who know the difference. So you make one universal rule that is easy for everyone to follow.

As I said, kind of difficult to explain, but I'll try. First you must understand that I(the pitcher) am taking certain "liberties" with my delivery. With both shoulders facing the plate, my arm(and possibly the ball in hand) dangling at my side, and my left leg forward(RHP), not only can I hide the ball(from a runner on 1B), but I can literally use my body and shoulders to hide most of my right arm(as long as my arm is dangling somewhere by my side). Again, you must understand that it was a stance that was being abused and used to gain an advantage.

 

IMO, the stance itself shouldn't be illegal. The problem is that it created some very difficult calls for "less experienced" umpires, that is for the vast majority of umpires. IMO this is along the same lines as the "late swing" on a steal. There is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. But there are very few umpires in between who know the difference. So you make one universal rule that is easy for everyone to follow.

 

Both shoulders facing the plate in the 'stretch' position?

As I said, kind of difficult to explain, but I'll try. First you must understand that I(the pitcher) am taking certain "liberties" with my delivery. With both shoulders facing the plate, my arm(and possibly the ball in hand) dangling at my side, and my left leg forward(RHP), not only can I hide the ball(from a runner on 1B), but I can literally use my body and shoulders to hide most of my right arm(as long as my arm is dangling somewhere by my side). Again, you must understand that it was a stance that was being abused and used to gain an advantage.

 

IMO, the stance itself shouldn't be illegal. The problem is that it created some very difficult calls for "less experienced" umpires, that is for the vast majority of umpires. IMO this is along the same lines as the "late swing" on a steal. There is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. But there are very few umpires in between who know the difference. So you make one universal rule that is easy for everyone to follow.

 

So (under NFHS rules) can the ball still be in the pitcher's hand "dangling to the side" if he is: 1) not bending over and/or, 2) doesn't have both shoulders facing the plate (which I guess is possible if you twist your torso)? I guess I can see an advantage if the pitcher on working from the stretch and initially has both shoulders turned towards the plate, as he is effectively already making 1/2 of his turn towards first base, thus allowing for a much quicker pickoff move.

 

Howver, if standing and dangling ball is allowed under NFHS, the pitcher can just as effectively conceal the ball than in the above scenario you presented. Again, perhaps you are right and it's something you'd have to see in person, but given that it's permissible in MLB, it can't be all that much (if any) of an advantage to the pitcher.

 

BTW, regarding the sliding base rule - unless it's specifically discussed before the game as being prohibited, then yes, we play OBR rules that the runner must only be able to make arm contact with the bag.