Bozich: Tubby makes a better Gopher...

[ladiesbballcoach]

*cough*Steve Lavin*cough*

 

That's right forgot him. How could I forget that head of grease? We could lub every car in the commonwealth with his head of hair.:lol:

[ladiesbballcoach]

With the exception of recent, very recent, final four appearances and with UCLAs championships, none of these schools out performs UK. We have become too enamored of FF appearances when what really counts are championships. Arizona is no where near consistant. Florida has only come on to the stage in the past few seasons. UCLA, Kansas and UNC have suffered long dry spells in not that long ago. When I was a kid, Jacksonville, St. Bonventure, Seton Hall, Ohio State, and Villanova all had impressive periods but soon faded. Who's to say Florida won't be the same. UK, UNC, KU, Duke, UCLA, and Indiana have down periods but always come back. You've got to be able to see beyond who has the hot hand at the moment.

 

If I remember right, Billy D had 5 or 6 years of either first round or first weekend losses in the NCAA tourney before the past two years.

 

At UK, not sure he would have ever made it to the two championship years without the fans calling for his head with 5 or 6 straight years of losing that first weekend.

 

Just looked for it again,

00-01 2nd round exit

01-02 1st round exit

02-03 2nd round exit

03-04 1st round exit

04-05 2nd round exit

 

Billy D would have been ripped by fans after 03-04 and a first round exit and 4 years of poor NCAA tournament showings. I can see the thread titles, "Why Billy D can't win the big one for UK."

 

Imagine Tubby was ripped for 2 years of poor showing after an Elite 8 appearance. No way Billy D gets free reign for these showings at UK.

[mobaar]

UK, UNC, KU, Duke, UCLA, and Indiana have down periods but always come back.

 

UNC - Fired their coach.

Indiana - Fired their coach.

KU - What down period?

Duke - What down period? Missed the tourney in 95 when Coach K was out half the year

[5wide]

UNC - Fired their coach.

Indiana - Fired their coach.

KU - What down period?

Duke - What down period? Missed the tourney in 95 when Coach K was out half the year

 

Those schools are all just like UK...they have a level of success that they expect and when it isn't met, the fans are disgruntled and they usually make changes.

 

I made this point when people were trying to paint UK fans in a class of their own, when all the elite programs are the same way, whether it be basketball or football.

 

Add UCLA to that mix as well...look at their history since Wooden left. The guy that followed Wooden made a final four appearance and had a huge winning percentage, better than Wooden's and he received death threats from angry UCLA fans...I can't remember if he resigned or was fired, but he lasted two seasons (with a great record and a final four). After that, they've went through many coaches.

 

Look at football...Alabama and Notre Dame come to mind. It's just a different situation when you get to these elite, tradition-rich programs...good or bad, right or wrong, that's just the way it is. UK is no different than any of the others, IMO.

[pigman]

BillyD is not a valid arguement Florida was not a basketball power before he got there.

[ladiesbballcoach]

BillyD is not a valid arguement Florida was not a basketball power before he got there.

 

They had been to a final 4 in the 90's.

[futurecoach]

UNC - Fired their coach.

Indiana - Fired their coach.

KU - What down period?

Duke - What down period? Missed the tourney in 95 when Coach K was out half the year

 

So from what I have seen you say on here, you think Tubby should have been fired right?

 

However UNC coach was fired because they missed the tournament, and I believe won less than 10 games that year. (I think we at UK are still actually trying to get to 10 wins still this year under Billy G. :sssh:) Then Indiana, didn't they miss the tournament like two different times under Mike Davis? Then for Kansas well do you really want to start there. I mean UK fans would have went nuts if we had did what Kansas has done. I mean under Roy Wiliams, they had the most talented teams so many times in the country, just to get bounced out early. (But wait I thought #1 seeds couldn't lose early in the tournament, atleast that is what people act like when UK lost with Tubby). I mean if we did that with Roy Williams, people would have been wanting him gone, saying he could put a great team together but can't win us a championship. Oh yeah Tubby beat Roy Williams in the NCAA tournament. Also at North Carolina Roy won with players he really didn't recruit, and as we know on here, it shouldn't count as a championship he won then. Then for Duke yeah the one year they didn't make the tournament, Coach K was out. And well I be honest I not positive on this, but did Duke do much of anything from 94 to 97? Then now I dont believe Duke has made it past the sweet 16 in the last 3 years. I think we all agree the last two years, were Tubby's worst. Yet did you know we still had the same average finish in the tournament as Duke during that time? :sssh:

 

So all your talk about coaches being fired from the school, dont compare at all. Those coaches you mentioned were missing the tournament, and things like that. Tubby never missed the tournament, his worst finish at UK was 2nd round. Averaged 26 wins a year, a few #1 seeds in the tournament, 5 SEC tournament and regular season championships. Also even though he didn't really have lottery picks in the NBA, he ended up putting a a good amount of guys in the NBA who made rosters, and contribute. So you can't compare Tubby at all to those coaches who got fired. Then the whole final four thing, I dont want to hear anything about that. I mean if we made it in 03, and only had a 4 or 5 year drought. You all would just be complaining about how we having won a title since 1998. As I said many of times on here, it really didn't matter what Tubby really did here, some people still would have never liked him.

[futurecoach]

Those schools are all just like UK...they have a level of success that they expect and when it isn't met, the fans are disgruntled and they usually make changes.

 

I made this point when people were trying to paint UK fans in a class of their own, when all the elite programs are the same way, whether it be basketball or football.

 

Add UCLA to that mix as well...look at their history since Wooden left. The guy that followed Wooden made a final four appearance and had a huge winning percentage, better than Wooden's and he received death threats from angry UCLA fans...I can't remember if he resigned or was fired, but he lasted two seasons (with a great record and a final four). After that, they've went through many coaches.

 

Look at football...Alabama and Notre Dame come to mind. It's just a different situation when you get to these elite, tradition-rich programs...good or bad, right or wrong, that's just the way it is. UK is no different than any of the others, IMO.

 

Read post #37 those situations are not really the same at all...

[mobaar]

So from what I have seen you say on here, you think Tubby should have been fired right?

 

No. I don't. I think he deserved at least 1, maybe 2 more years before being fired.

 

People love to point to other "elite" programs that had down periods, without mentioning that the coaches during those down periods were fired.

 

I didn't read any more of your post because it was two long with too few paragraphs.

[futurecoach]

No. I don't. I think he deserved at least 1, maybe 2 more years before being fired.

 

People love to point to other "elite" programs that had down periods, without mentioning that the coaches during those down periods were fired.

 

I didn't read any more of your post because it was two long with too few paragraphs.

 

I will say if we would have had two more years like we did the past two years under him, then I would have said he should have been fired two...:thumb:

 

The thing that really got me always arguing for Tubby, is when many people started saying Tubby was a horrible coach and couldn't coach a mid-major team..

 

As for the other elite programs with their coaches, I made some very good points about that. Sorry that I didn't seperate them into more paragraphs for you. I was just on a role, and wanted to get everything out.

[pigman]

I agree Roy Williams has not won a title with players he recruited, and I thought as you said; many times he had the most talent in the nation and couldn't win a championship that's why I considered him a choke artist.

 

Most people with any basketball knowledge at all know that Tubby is a very good coach and person. What some of us believe is that he left UK in worse shape than he found it, and I'm not even going back to the championship years, but Tubby's best years. If he had left us with players like Bogans and Prince and Hayes and several other very good players he had recruited and coached we wouldn't have half the discussion we have.

[ladiesbballcoach]

I agree Roy Williams has not won a title with players he recruited, and I thought as you said; many times he had the most talent in the nation and couldn't win a championship that's why I considered him a choke artist.

 

Most people with any basketball knowledge at all know that Tubby is a very good coach and person. What some of us believe is that he left UK in worse shape than he found it, and I'm not even going back to the championship years, but Tubby's best years. If he had left us with players like Bogans and Prince and Hayes and several other very good players he had recruited and coached we wouldn't have half the discussion we have.

 

Well of course he did. I have pointed out over and over and over and over, what UK did in 96 to 98 has happened like 6 times in the history of the NCAA (UK twice, UCLA's run, Cincinnati, Duke, Florida and San Fran). Any coach that took over from Rick at this twice reached peak in UK basketball history would have done the same thing.

 

If Gene Bartow would have won 2 National Championships at UCLA after John Wooden, the Bruin fans could have said that he left UCLA in worse shape than what John Wooden did.

 

If Tubby would have left Prince, Hayes and Bogans, it STILL would have been in worse shape than what he got. That was a special time in UK history that has ONLY OCCURRED one other time.

[5wide]

Read post #37 those situations are not really the same at all...

 

My point was not to say that any situation was the same. My point is that tradition-rich, elite programs all have extremely high expectations and coaching at those places is unlike anywhere else. The fans are hyper-critical. Tubby's situation just falls in line with many other examples from other similar programs, whether it's basketball or football. I'm not trying to criticize Smith or argue about whether he should or shouldn't have gone. No two situations are ever the same...but there is a lot of common ground between UK, UNC, UCLA, and IU basketball when it comes to fan and administration expectations and how coaches have fared at those programs.

 

Duke hasn't had to deal with a coaching change yet, but I guarantee that when K leaves, if the successor doesn't live up to Duke expectations, the fans will let him know about it and he'll likely be replaced.

[futurecoach]

I agree Roy Williams has not won a title with players he recruited, and I thought as you said; many times he had the most talent in the nation and couldn't win a championship that's why I considered him a choke artist.

 

Most people with any basketball knowledge at all know that Tubby is a very good coach and person. What some of us believe is that he left UK in worse shape than he found it, and I'm not even going back to the championship years, but Tubby's best years. If he had left us with players like Bogans and Prince and Hayes and several other very good players he had recruited and coached we wouldn't have half the discussion we have.

 

The thing is when he left us, he left us with 2 Mcdonald All-Americans in Crawford and Morris because Morris was still here. Then another guard in Bradley that was not a bad recruit at all. Then you had Meeks, Jasper, and Stevenson which was not a bad recruiting class at all. Then he paved the way for us to get Patterson with all the recruiting he did of him, and well of Lucas as well. But Billy G. just couldn't convince Lucas to come here still, but he did convince Patterson to Luckily. Also he left us AJ Stewart who is probably one of the most athletic guys on the team, but for whatever reason we still dont know Billy G. dont play him. So I mean Tubby didn't leave us in as bad of shape as we all think. He left us a team and with possible recruits to make this a team that should have been very competitive and making the tournament. I mean just look at the preseason rankings, most people thought this team had talent and could do good. I mean was it as good as when Tubby got here, no it was not. But there was no way to get it back to that level, because when he got here we was on top of the mountain after two straight finals, and so there was only one way to go from there. So I mean Tubby didn't leave us as bad as everyone thinks he did. Billy G just hasn't been able to get these guys to buy into his style, so it makes this team look worst than it really should be, plus the injuries are really killing us.

[Wireman]

From the big ones mentioned (and btw, HOW IS SYRACUSE included with these other teams?)

 

UNC, Kansas, UCLA, Duke, Florida, Syracuse, Arizona,

 

UNC has been the only one to fire a coach in how long? Wasn't it the next year after Dougherty was fired that Williams won the NCAA? I am sorry, let me correct that, Williams won with Dougherty's players, the NCAA?

 

Syracuse has won 20+ games in 24 out of the last 25 seasons (and the other season, they won 19). They lost 10+ games in 7 out of those 25 seasons. Those are pretty consistent numbers.