July 26, 200719 yr kdsoiehhdjoiw woos woodk m.ow 2. My bad. I lose all ability to type when I read something that just completely blows me away.
July 26, 200719 yr kdsoiehhdjoiw woos woodk m.ow 2.I don't even know what this means.... You asked, I thought and answered.....I grew up watching the Big Red Machine, like many kids and Morgan, is an integral part of their success. Just because Biggio, has not attained the WS rings, doesn't diminish his value and his performance. I've seen lil' Joe, flap into many flyballs and groundballs. I'm presuming he has an advantage in SB and perhaps runs. I've not compared the two but I also know, lil' Joe had some lean years also.
July 26, 200719 yr I don't even know what this means.... You asked, I thought and answered.....I grew up watching the Big Red Machine, like many kids and Morgan, is an integral part of their success. Just because Biggio, has not attained the WS rings, doesn't diminish his value and his performance. I've seen lil' Joe, flap into many flyballs and groundballs. I'm presuming he has an advantage in SB and perhaps runs. I've not compared the two but I also know, lil' Joe had some lean years also. I have no doubt you gave it serious consideration. I'm just stunned, thus, my smartass response. I know you're going off of gut feel, intution, memory, etc. However, you've mentioned stats more than once in this discussion (along with HSSRB and others). Do you not put any credence into adjusting stats for the times/eras? I ask because Joe's adjusted stats (I've listed how those are determined earlier in this thread) show Joe with 416 HRs. 416!
July 26, 200719 yr I have no doubt you gave it serious consideration. I'm just stunned, thus, my smartass response. I know you're going off of gut feel, intuition, memory, etc. However, you've mentioned stats more than once in this discussion (along with HSSRB and others). Do you not put any credence into adjusting stats for the times/eras? I ask because Joe's adjusted stats (I've listed how those are determined earlier in this thread) show Joe with 416 HRs. 416! I adjusted stats one time and realized/pointed out, they are speculative. You mentioned stats, here is a reasonable comparison. I'll highlight the leaders, in each category. Biggio 20yrs 2,800 – games 10,707 – AB’s 1,827 – Runs 3,017 – Hits 661 – 2B’s 55 – 3B’s 287 – HR’s 1,160 – RBI 413 – SB’s 123 – Caught Stealing 1,155 –BB’s 1,715 – K’s .365 – OBP% 198 – E’s .985 – fielding % 7,086 – putouts 5,596 – assists Morgan 22yrs 2,649 – games 9,277 – AB’s 1,650 – Runs 2,517 – Hits 449 – 2B’s 96 – 3B’s 268 – HR’s 1,133 – RBI’s 689 – SB’s 162 – Caught Stealing 1,865 – BB’s 1,015 – K’s .392 – OBP% 245 – E’s .981 – fielding % 5,768 – putouts 6,969 – assists
July 26, 200719 yr I adjusted stats one time and realized/pointed out, they are speculative. You mentioned stats, here is a reasonable comparison. I'll highlight the leaders, in each category. So , in your mind, 300 HRs in the 60s/70s is equal to 300 HRs today?
July 26, 200719 yr I have tried to digest it and digest it more... I just cannot say the words "Craig Biggio, first ballot hall of famer." Even to say it does not sound right... in my mind, just saying should weigh a lot into a decision. Remember, by saying Biggio is 1st Ballot, that is putting him with the likes of Ruth, Dimaggio, etc. I just cannot see myself walking around Cooperstown 40 years from now, and my grandkid asks me about Biggio and me explaining that he is a first ballot hall of famer... just as good as any of the all time greats. Great guy, great compiled numbers (in large part) due to a lengthy career, solid at everything.... but he was never an MVP, not a game changing type player (save me the useless stats people), not any kind of a major revolutionary player, and known for nothing but being hit by a lot of pitches and just all around solid. Not great. HOF, yes. 1st ballot, no.
July 26, 200719 yr So , in your mind, 300 HRs in the 60s/70s is equal to 300 HRs today?Do you think Babe Ruth, would have 714, if he played in today's modern time....I don't, because his lack of conditioning and off the field issues, would limit his career. Would Ty Cobb, Cy Young and others, have all their records....No, but nonetheless, they still accomplished them.
July 26, 200719 yr Do you think Babe Ruth, would have 714, if he played in today's modern time....I don't, because his lack of conditioning and off the field issues, would limit his career. Would Ty Cobb, Cy Young and others, have all their records....No, but nonetheless, they still accomplished them. But what about the 300 HRs in the 60s/70s vs today?
July 26, 200719 yr But what about the 300 HRs in the 60s/70s vs today?Depends on who is playing....Morgan played at Riverfront and the launching pad, didn't help him with high HR's totals. We can speculate on totals for offensive numbers, from era to era but that is all it can be. Parks are different, game has changed and I honestly believe, the pitching is much, much worse now, than back in the '70's and early '80's, which would even bolster your contention.
July 26, 200719 yr Do you think Babe Ruth, would have 714, if he played in today's modern time....I don't, because his lack of conditioning and off the field issues, would limit his career. Would Ty Cobb, Cy Young and others, have all their records....No, but nonetheless, they still accomplished them. Why Ruth would have more than 714 if playing today: Technology Better conditioning (how many nutritionists were there in 1927?) Today's ballparks much easier to go yard in. Why he would not: Specialty pitchers Blacks/Latinos now making the pitching better
July 26, 200719 yr Depends on who is playing....Morgan played at Riverfront and the launching pad, didn't help him with high HR's totals. We can speculate on totals for offensive numbers, from era to era but that is all it can be. Parks are different, game has changed and I honestly believe, the pitching is much, much worse now, than back in the '70's and early '80's, which would even bolster your contention. Let me reiterate this. Every "normalized" stat I've quoted 100% takes into account everything you and others have mentioned. These are not guys sitting at the bar debating. Park factors, pitching ability, average performance, etc are all taken into account. So, I'm curious how one can discount , for example, Whitaker's adjusted home run count for an equal comparison to Biggio. Whiel you can never eliminate subjective measures, normalizing the numbers can only help make an accurate evaluation, correct?
July 26, 200719 yr I've got to go get my dome trimmed . I am very curious to read your thoughts on comparative stats given what I've already said that has already been taken into consideration. I look forward to reading it when I return.
July 26, 200719 yr Biggio's numbers are better than Morgan's IMO.... Can you have an opinion if #'s are better or not? I mean, wouldn't it be fact?
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