Habib, I just called to go to work and will not be back in town until Saturday. Can someone help him until I get back. Man...I ought to call the Railroad and delay the train this might be more important. "I'll be Back"

Habib, I just called to go to work and will not be back in town until Saturday. Can someone help him until I get back. Man...I ought to call the Railroad and delay the train this might be more important. "I'll be Back"

 

:lol: Don't worry I will be fine. This thread will still be here Saturday. :thumb:

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but Paul seems to repeatedly stress the point of salvation by grace through faith alone. Our works are merely proof of our faith and salvation, not a means to attain or keep it. Other verses strongly imply that our good works will be rewarded by something, but salvation. That only comes from Christ.

 

I say this in true charity. You are missing something. We cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation.

 

There is the possibility of self-deception (Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

 

There is also the possibility of falling from grace through sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

 

Also, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of certitude. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

And finally, Matthew 25: 41 says "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" This is from the "whatsover you do" story.

 

My point is that you can pick 6 or 8 or 10 verses from the bible and conclude something. Someone else can pick 6 or 8 or 10 other verses and come to a different conclusion. But the bible is made up of thousands and thousands of verses.

 

Jesus knew this confusion would happen and so He set up some safeguards for us. Remember that Peter tells us not to privately interpret scripture (quoted earlier in this thread). And Jesus tells us repeatedly that we are to turn to the church that He established for guidance and authentic interpretation.

 

Also, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of certitude. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

:thumb:

I say this in true charity. You are missing something. We cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation.

 

There is the possibility of self-deception (Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

 

There is also the possibility of falling from grace through sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

 

Also, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of certitude. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

And finally, Matthew 25: 41 says "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" This is from the "whatsover you do" story.

 

My point is that you can pick 6 or 8 or 10 verses from the bible and conclude something. Someone else can pick 6 or 8 or 10 other verses and come to a different conclusion. But the bible is made up of thousands and thousands of verses.

 

Jesus knew this confusion would happen and so He set up some safeguards for us. Remember that Peter tells us not to privately interpret scripture (quoted earlier in this thread). And Jesus tells us repeatedly that we are to turn to the church that He established for guidance and authentic interpretation.

 

Which church would that be...Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mennonite, Amish, etc...?

Which church would that be...Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mennonite, Amish, etc...?

none of the above, some of the above, all of the above is the correct answer, I believe. I think Christians will end up coming from many different denominations as denominations are a man-thing and not a God-thing, in my view.

where have you been?

none of the above, some of the above, all of the above is the correct answer, I believe. I think Christians will end up coming from many different denominations as denominations are a man-thing and not a God-thing, in my view.

 

Which was my point...when you say rely on "the church" to interpret things for you, then you talking about the church you regularly attend or the groups you regularly meet with. And, just like we as individuals don't always agree, the groups/denominations we're affiliated with don't either, otherwise we wouldn't have a gazillion different branches of Christianity. As long as they hold to the cornerstones of Christianity (immaculate conception; death, burial and resurrection of Christ) then the other disagreements are of lesser importance to me.

 

And, even if we disagree on the issue of falling from grace, it's no matter to me. We can be secure in our salvation, and if we are out of fellowship with God because of our actions, we know the steps to take to restore that. So, from my view, that's left up to the individual...as for me, I'm comfortable with my salvation.

Which church would that be...Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mennonite, Amish, etc...?

I'd have to go with the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Just their name seems to cover more ground.

Which was my point...when you say rely on "the church" to interpret things for you, then you talking about the church you regularly attend or the groups you regularly meet with. And, just like we as individuals don't always agree, the groups/denominations we're affiliated with don't either, otherwise we wouldn't have a gazillion different branches of Christianity. As long as they hold to the cornerstones of Christianity (immaculate conception; death, burial and resurrection of Christ) then the other disagreements are of lesser importance to me.

 

And, even if we disagree on the issue of falling from grace, it's no matter to me. We can be secure in our salvation, and if we are out of fellowship with God because of our actions, we know the steps to take to restore that. So, from my view, that's left up to the individual...as for me, I'm comfortable with my salvation.

A big, big key in the bolded.

 

The only thing that would make me move the falling from grace point up to these is the fear that it could lead people astray. If you CAN fall from grace and a person is taught to believe they CAN'T, they may be lead to do things that they thing they are safe from when they are not.

 

Saying once saved always saved is a dangerous mindset if you are wrong.

A big, big key in the bolded.

 

The only thing that would make me move the falling from grace point up to these is the fear that it could lead people astray. If you CAN fall from grace and a person is taught to believe they CAN'T, they may be lead to do things that they thing they are safe from when they are not.

 

Saying once saved always saved is a dangerous mindset if you are wrong.

 

I agree. I guess I just hold the opinion that a trully saved person will change their lifestyle. If someone is supposed to be saved, but you see no evidence of it, then there has to be some doubt.

 

On the flipside, to say you're saved but you have to keep working at it has it's faults as well. You get into a situation where people start relying on their works, and they wonder "When have I done enough? When is my salvation secure?"...and that robs you of the joy and freedom you're supposed to have as a Christian.

 

The once saved, always saved mindset, from my view, is not a license to go and do whatever you want, but more a view that a truly saved person will truly change.

 

It's a debatable subject, I think, but that's just where I'm at right now...doesn't mean I won't change my thoughts on it. I learn new things all the time that changes what I think. That's why I look to talk about these issues.

I'd have to go with the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Just their name seems to cover more ground.

 

Can you tell me where I can find one? That way I can clear these questions up...:lol:

Which church would that be...Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mennonite, Amish, etc...?

 

Not trying to start another argument but He started the Roman Catholic Church. Call me arrogant but I believe that that is His Church.

 

For the record, I am not saying that other Christians will not be saved.

Not trying to start another argument but He started the Roman Catholic Church. Call me arrogant but I believe that that is His Church.

 

For the record, I am not saying that other Christians will not be saved.

Uh, no. He didn't start the Roman Catholic Church. He started THE Church, simply the body of believers who called upon his name for salvation.

 

The word "catholic" wasn't even used until the beginning of the 2nd century. Unfortunately, most Catholics don't even know what the word means. It's a Greek word that literally translates "according to the whole" or universal. The Catholic Church was meant to encompass all Christians regardless of background. I was raised Baptist and now consider myself a non-denominational protestant. Yet I am still part of the catholic church. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is just a part of that body, just as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church and the Protestant denominations are. They did not forfeit their place in the Body just because they split from the RCC.

Not trying to start another argument but He started the Roman Catholic Church. Call me arrogant but I believe that that is His Church.

 

For the record, I am not saying that other Christians will not be saved.

 

So, I'd need to go to the Roman Catholic Church to get the correct answer to my question?

 

You won't start any argument with me, believe me. I'm not going down that road.