I promise that I'm not looking for an anti-religion religion to join, but I must say that it is refreshing to be able to identify with others here who are on similar pages. As I'm sure that some of you have experienced, it's not everyday that you run into very many folks who even come anywhere near understanding where you are coming from.

 

Certainly none of you, or myself have the answer to the ultimate truth, but we have at least allowed ourselves to admit this, and understand that we are limited in possibly knowing, or what we can possibly know.

 

It would appear that throughout time the majority of humanity hasn't been satisfied with this realization, or even allowed themselves to realize it, therefore man-made concepts have been created to pacify those not willing to accept these limitations, and from that world religions have evolved, and have been passed down from generation to generation giving the false notion that their longevity is any proof of anything other than the power of human conditioning, and human behavior.

 

I certainly get wanting to know, but making stuff up instead of facing reality is not something that ever sat well with me.

 

It doesn't sit well with me either that these various world religions have been for centuries the root of conflict all the while claiming to be the truth, and guilting and forcing its followers to believe, or face eternal damnation.

 

It's not a mission of mine to prohibit others from living in fantasy, but it's important to me that they, no matter how many of them that there are, keep their fantasies in perspective and don't infringe on my rights to believe, or not believe however I believe.

 

As InItToWinIt has displayed it can be a shock to the system of the general public of religious believers that anyone would dare question religion or speak out against it negatively.

 

Because he is a believer, he takes it personally that others find it to be delusional.

 

He equates us referring to religion as delusional as us saying that he is delusional when no one directed that specific dialogue at him personally.

 

From where he sits, I can see where that might be hard to swallow, but he also might want to keep in perspective that the thing that we don't believe in that he does, is something that he can't prove, so though it's fine for him to believe it, and if if works for his life all the better, but it's a hard sale to plead for others to stop voicing their realist views so that his religious toes don't get stepped on.

 

There's really no other way around voicing what we feel without voicing what we feel.

 

Though he might not see it as such because he shares beliefs with millions, but him voicing his religious views might be a bit insulting to intelligent thinking people who have analyzed religion to death, and is why many of us have come to the realization that it has been generally for centuries a controlling human institution playing with the masses emotions and limitations of what they can truly know by saying "look no further, we have all the answers right here and with it the rules you are obligated to live by or else".

 

He's apart of a large portion of society that believes just as he does, so we must seem entirely bold and foreign to actually stand up and say that we have had enough of the bull crap in our lives, and that in our quest for knowledge we had to sort out reality from fantasy, and to peel away the layers of misguided conditioning that we had been subjected to much of our childhood in order for us to avoid living as delusional adults.

 

Because we are a minority who have been willing to do this doesn't make us any less valid in our conclusions.

 

The majority of the world would likely think that we are out of our minds, but I would venture to say that many of you have at times thought this exact thing of the majority of the world.

 

Anyhow the bottom line to what I initially wanted to say is that it's refreshing to know that I'm not alone in my way of thinking and that it's cool to know that there are a least a few people here and there that can relate.

 

It's suffocating enough to know that in the big picture I am a minority in thought, so it's good to know that there are others who are capable of thinking outside of the box. It's starting to sound a bit dated to say "thinking outside of the box" but somehow it still fits.

 

EXACTLY. Still another post full of wisdom. I now know what it must have been like to have been a contemporary of Socrates or Plato. You are one great thinker.

I just can't comprehend how people of all religions can take orders and obey them without even thinking. With all the Information we have at our finger tips these days its just mind boggling that religion is still so powerful. I could understand up to even the 1950's people being scared into beliefs, but once the social revolution started In the 60's people started thinking for themselves More and more.

 

Religion uses scare tactics to keep their people subservient and in the case of catholics bringing that cash in. If you were void of info on various topics and all you were fed from the get go wed all brainwashed. But there is just to much information right on our cellphones to not at least open our eyes and minds just a tiny bit.

 

Yet another draw back to religion is the hundreds of wars raged and genocides carried out all in the name of peaceful religion. The catholic inquisitions, the crusades, the never going to end hatred between Jews and Muslims over a city, a specific site just BC they believe two different things.

 

Muslims are still the most violent of the ythree major religions and they havegovernments based on religion. The strangle hold the higher ups have on their people!e is just amazing. It makes no sense. I don't want to hate anyone just BC they believe something different than me.

 

People need to think for themselves.

 

Another good post JE.

Please look at the bolded. In one instance, you say that you are calling the religion delusional and not the followers, yet you go on to say the believers are "delusional adults" and non-believers are "intelligent thinking people." You say that you've had enough of the bull crap, and that's not supposed to be insulting?

 

I'm supposed to believe that its not a shot at me? Its not a shot at the people like me? Its not a shot at what I truly feel in my heart and soul is the right thing and I consider the greatest part of my life?

 

I'm not even trying to convert you or change your way of thinking at this point, but I do ask that you do use basic respect when speaking about your disagreements with theism.

 

Every person on earth has a different brain and has had different experiences and different upbringings - so different views are okay. Let's not make Theists less valid because they are the majority, either.

 

 

Now, I want to be clear - the following is not how I feel. It is completely hypothetical. How would you feel if I called homosexual adults delusional? How would you feel if I said you voicing your homosexual feelings is insulting to straight people because there's no proof that its a natural biological function and I analyzed the hell out of it?

 

My point is, theism, Christianity in particular, is something that is in my heart and I have always felt there, just like your sexuality, which is absolutely fine. I know its not an apples to apples comparison, but if somebody truly believes in Christianity,it has to be the thing closest to his/her heart.

 

You don't have to accept that, but I please ask that you put yourself in my shoes before making fun of what is literally (in my view) the most important, awesome, biggest, greatest thing ever to exist in the history of the universe.

 

Again how can I express how I feel without expressing how I feel?

 

Let's begin by saying that I am not making "fun" of religion.

 

Long before I ever knew there was a person named "InItToWinIt" I had come to my own conclusions regarding that which had been rammed down my throat my entire childhood.

 

It isn't you that I am directing my thoughts, it's the institution of religion.

 

You can split hairs all that you want, but if i no longer want to be controlled in my life by such things, and these are my reasons why, and what I have discarded is what you hold dear, you will have to somehow learn to deal with it that not everyone will cherish with open arms the things that you believe in.

 

I'm in no way suggesting that you personally need to quit believing just because I don't believe. If it works for you that's wonderful, but it doesn't work for me.

 

You find the reasons that I have stated that it doesn't work for me as an insult to you. If you take it as a shot at you I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I don't know any other way to describe my distaste for religion without it ticking off those who are believers.

 

If you are solid in your belief perhaps you can conclude that not everyone is capable of seeing things the way you do. Though I don't follow religion, I do understand why people do. Perhaps you can come to understand why some people don't and not take it as a personal threat.

 

The difference between comparing a religion to homosexuality is that you and I have both been exposed to the same religion, and religion is about beliefs of the unknown, however I developed from childhood with same sex attractions, and that is something that is not apart of your sexual experience.

 

This is not about the unknown as my body's reaction to other men while growing up made it very apparent to me that I was attracted to them. There was no myth involved. It was fact and there was no doubt in my mind that I was attracted to men without any choice in the matter.

 

You might be able to have an uniformed opinion one way or another about homosexuality, but without actually experiencing same sex attractions, while also not being attracted to the opposite sex like I and the millions of homosexuals throughout time have, you really can't offer any informed information on the topic

 

I have spent a lifetime hearing people offer uninformed information on it and it tells me a lot about their capabilities to think rationally when it's apparent to me that they don't know what they're talking about.

 

I'm not keen on the fact that so many people are ignorant regarding homosexuality, but I've had to thicken my skin throughout my life to deal with the realization that as long as I live there will always be people who don't understand.

 

Just as I have had to thicken my skin regarding people's uninformed views about homosexuality, I have had to thicken my skin with the realization that regarding religion I am a minority in thought and that there will always be religions and for as long as I live I will have to deal with the fact that I will forever be surrounded by believers.

 

By the same token you might want to keep in perspective that though you won't encounter as many non believers as I do believers, there will always be those who don't believe, and more than likely those non believers had been raised as believers and have given a tremendous amount of thought to it.

 

Wherever you stand it life your skin better be thick enough to take that not everyone will stand with you. That's the hard reality of life.

 

Thankfully we live in a country that has the sense to separate church from state to not force everyone to follow religion. And thankfully also we are finally arriving at a time that people can be held accountable for discriminating against others for the sexual orientation. It says a lot about how far we've come to understand freedom and civility.

 

You say that you have studied things deeply and it has only reinforced your faith, and I can completely respect that. You are actually a rarity when it comes to people actually giving their beliefs in depth study.

 

The majority of religious believers throughout the world believe what they believe merely because it's what they have been taught their entire lives, and they can't fathom that truth might be anything other than what they've been made to believe it is.

 

Is it really any mystery that Muslims raised Muslim, are Muslims, and Jews raised Jews are Jews, and Hindus raised Hindu are Hindu and Christians raised Christian are Christians, and more specifically Catholics raised Catholics are Catholic?

 

I respect you for being a believer and I completely agree that you should be free to believe what you believe and I would hope that in return you can respect those who don't.

 

The more you push for people to be censored in their feelings towards religion you will have only begun to feel the force of them pushing back, and it is then you will really feel the wrath of insults that will come your way.

 

Just as non believers must deal with the fact that there are believers, believers must deal with the fact that there are non believers. Actually, we non believers have to deal with it more. There are way more of you than there are of us.

 

There again to even the playing field and for the freedoms of all, thankfully we have separation of church and state.

My best friend from this website is a very religious person, a very devout Catholic. I met him through BGP. He reads everything I post about religion and still seems to like me.(That's about a miracle ) He isn't bothered by what I write about religion. We agree about some things and disagree about others. He has never upset me with his devotion to his religion and I don't think I have offended his sensibilities with my utter disdain for religion. Whatever he wants to believe about religion is fine with me. If it works for him and helps him be at peace with himself and the Universe, then that's a good thing.

Like B-Ball-Fan said earlier, the only way to really voice what we feel is to voice what we feel. I've really enjoyed reading these stories. As I expected, there is definitely some commonalities.

Again how can I express how I feel without expressing how I feel?

 

Let's begin by saying that I am not making "fun" of religion.

 

Long before I ever knew there was a person named "InItToWinIt" I had come to my own conclusions regarding that which had been rammed down my throat my entire childhood.

 

It isn't you that I am directing my thoughts, it's the institution of religion.

 

You can split hairs all that you want, but if i no longer want to be controlled in my life by such things, and these are my reasons why, and what I have discarded is what you hold dear, you will have to somehow learn to deal with it that not everyone will cherish with open arms the things that you believe in.

 

I'm in no way suggesting that you personally need to quit believing just because I don't believe. If it works for you that's wonderful, but it doesn't work for me.

 

You find the reasons that I have stated that it doesn't work for me as an insult to you. If you take it as a shot at you I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I don't know any other way to describe my distaste for religion without it ticking off those who are believers.

 

If you are solid in your belief perhaps you can conclude that not everyone is capable of seeing things the way you do. Though I don't follow religion, I do understand why people do. Perhaps you can come to understand why some people don't and not take it as a personal threat.

 

The difference between comparing a religion to homosexuality is that you and I have both been exposed to the same religion, and religion is about beliefs of the unknown, however I developed from childhood with same sex attractions, and that is something that is not apart of your sexual experience.

 

This is not about the unknown as my body's reaction to other men while growing up made it very apparent to me that I was attracted to them. There was no myth involved. It was fact and there was no doubt in my mind that I was attracted to men without any choice in the matter.

 

You might be able to have an uniformed opinion one way or another about homosexuality, but without actually experiencing same sex attractions, while also not being attracted to the opposite sex like I and the millions of homosexuals throughout time have, you really can't offer any informed information on the topic

 

I have spent a lifetime hearing people offer uninformed information on it and it tells me a lot about their capabilities to think rationally when it's apparent to me that they don't know what they're talking about.

 

I'm not keen on the fact that so many people are ignorant regarding homosexuality, but I've had to thicken my skin throughout my life to deal with the realization that as long as I live there will always be people who don't understand.

 

Just as I have had to thicken my skin regarding people's uninformed views about homosexuality, I have had to thicken my skin with the realization that regarding religion I am a minority in thought and that there will always be religions and for as long as I live I will have to deal with the fact that I will forever be surrounded by believers.

 

By the same token you might want to keep in perspective that though you won't encounter as many non believers as I do believers, there will always be those who don't believe, and more than likely those non believers had been raised as believers and have given a tremendous amount of thought to it.

 

Wherever you stand it life your skin better be thick enough to take that not everyone will stand with you. That's the hard reality of life.

 

Thankfully we live in a country that has the sense to separate church from state to not force everyone to follow religion. And thankfully also we are finally arriving at a time that people can be held accountable for discriminating against others for the sexual orientation. It says a lot about how far we've come to understand freedom and civility.

 

You say that you have studied things deeply and it has only reinforced your faith, and I can completely respect that. You are actually a rarity when it comes to people actually giving their beliefs in depth study.

 

The majority of religious believers throughout the world believe what they believe merely because it's what they have been taught their entire lives, and they can't fathom that truth might be anything other than what they've been made to believe it is.

 

Is it really any mystery that Muslims raised Muslim, are Muslims, and Jews raised Jews are Jews, and Hindus raised Hindu are Hindu and Christians raised Christian are Christians, and more specifically Catholics raised Catholics are Catholic?

 

I respect you for being a believer and I completely agree that you should be free to believe what you believe and I would hope that in return you can respect those who don't.

 

The more you push for people to be censored in their feelings towards religion you will have only begun to feel the force of them pushing back, and it is then you will really feel the wrath of insults that will come your way.

 

Just as non believers must deal with the fact that there are believers, believers must deal with the fact that there are non believers. Actually, we non believers have to deal with it more. There are way more of you than there are of us.

 

There again to even the playing field and for the freedoms of all, thankfully we have separation of church and state.

 

This is the question I have pondered for over a year after being repeatedly excoriated on here for expressing how I feel about religion.

So it seems as though the atheists on this thread grew up in a church that was extremely strict, conservative, and literal. I wonder if it was in a reaction to those variables that pushed them to decide that God did not exist and not an internal feeling or natural suspicion?

 

I grew up in a congregation that viewed the Bible as God's word and our goal was to love each other and share the good news. Very happy and positive people. They taught me that church and living a christian life is fun, therefore I raise my children and preach from that perspective.

Perhaps some people would enjoy this sermon I preached about a month ago about how the church should be a lighthouse to men and not a machine gun tower.

 

My notes are also available at this link for your reading.

 

http://lystracoc.sermon.net/main/main/20592630

I was raised in a liberal Catholic home, but my parents are products of the 1950s-1970s Catholic Church. Like my dad said, if he were to ever say a negative thing about their priest his parents would take him to task. I was a product of late 80s-class of 2000. I was privilege with much more info and outside views than the baby boomers. We went to church twice a week at school and either saturdaybor Sunday for pretty much 14 years. My parents allowed us to be free thinkers and have control of our lives. They never preached or put other faiths down. They taught us to be respectful of others and have great manners. While we went through our teenage phase myself and my brothers have, I believe, to be extremely polite, well spoke respectful. It had way more to do with how we were raised than by what the priest talked about in the hundreds of sermons I sat through.

 

I believe Catholicism is losing a lot of people bc it's pretty much the same thing since the beginning of Christianity. Stand, sit, kneel repeat. The only thing that changes is the homily and that could be repeated every year. Who would know.

 

I think being raised baptist or whatever other brand there is maybe would help keep me faithful. There up signing dancing yelling out. If your baby cries in a Catholic Church, well like Tupac says "all eyes on you".

 

If people want to believe then by all means believe, but don't preach eternal damnation for me not beleiving.

 

I believe the root of most my angst is with Rome. They have so much money yet the school my son goes to started the year $30000 in the hole. I seriously suggested writing a letter to the Pope (bishop of Rome) and asking for the money. We've donated plenty to them. I was laughed at like I was telling a joke. I find most Catholics just go through the motions and I am not one.

Nothing in here that is contrary to Christianity. Many Christians would have the same issues that you raised yet remain committed Christians. These are not insurmountable intellectual issues. Open a book or two by Christian apologists and open your mind and you will find coherent, rational explanations for the Christian faith.

 

My next comments are not directed at Jackie Ed: It is simply not true that no one has asked difficult questions of the Christian faith until recently. Intellectual giants have been and still are believers. Equally rational and intelligent folks have also looked at the issues and concluded that God does not exist or that there isn't enough "evidence" for God's existence and therefore they cannot say the God does exist. But you can't say that all Christians have failed to examine the faith or that truly intelligent people cannot find intellectually satisfying reasons to believe.

 

So it seems as though the atheists on this thread grew up in a church that was extremely strict, conservative, and literal. I wonder if it was in a reaction to those variables that pushed them to decide that God did not exist and not an internal feeling or natural suspicion?

 

I grew up in a congregation that viewed the Bible as God's word and our goal was to love each other and share the good news. Very happy and positive people. They taught me that church and living a christian life is fun, therefore I raise my children and preach from that perspective.

 

A couple of quick points, PP1, without really putting much deliberation into the words, .......as to reading the Christian apologists who have tackled the questions or dilemmas that we all described. I have read a bunch, and it is true that thru the years (centuries) there has been a sea of ink spilled on these "hard questions." I just don't find the explanations convincing, and find them to varying degrees illogical, or tortured interpretations of the text, or incomplete, etc etc.

 

I read somewhere once, I might be able to find it again, where someone compiled ten questions. "why do bad things happen to good people" would have been one. Classic questions that have been addressed by christian apologists. So take that question, there is no end to the number of answers put forth by christian apologists. But they all start from the conclusion that there is a god. So they start with: god exists, and then they explain why bad things happen to good people. The person put together the ten questions and the most common answers. All the answers to these questions that have vexed christian apologists for centuries. But the answers are not hard at all, if you simply don't assume at the start the existence of god. The answers get real easy and real clear.

 

On one of your other points, we do seem to share a pretty intense religious background (speaking of the posters in this thread). I saw somewhere recently where the vatican had done some internal survey and was concerned about the high number of atheists in the clergy. Additionally, hitchens used to talk about how he got many contacts from members of the clergy who no longer believed. While I don't know of any study, so all of the above is subject to question, it does appear that the more one studies the bible, and doctrine, that there is a chance to end up like me lol. I think that it would be hard to be an atheist if one did not put in a lot of thought about god. Obviously most people who think a lot about god do not become atheists, but I do think most atheists put in a lot of thought about god as part of their process.

You know I preached an entire series through the book of Job that deals with the question Why do bad things happen to good people? That is also called "The problem of Evil." Almost every philosophy book handles that issue.

 

If you would like, I can send you copies of my sermon notes over job. I do not think I have a tape of it.

Yet another reason I'm not religious( I know I could write a short book), is the whole homosexuality thing. If God believes in treating others how we want to be treated, why do we care if two woman or to men want to marry and stay DEVOTED to eac other? Homosexuality isn't my cup of tea but my wife has a gay cousin and he's the nicest laid back person I know. I don't quit loving someone because they are gay. I wouldn't stop if there thing was beastiality. You don't have to be religious to treat your fellow man how you want to be treated.

 

Like wise my wife's BFF since 1st grade has a gay female cousin. This friends entire family (6 sets of aunts/uncles) has black listed said cousin bc of her preference. How can you honestly look a homosexual who has done nothing bad to you and hate them only bc of one thing? Oh bc the bible says it's wrong?

 

I find Catholics to be the biggest hypocrits in religion. As long as we go to church, drop that envelope in the collection basket, take communion and go to confession we have all our sins absolved. I know so many (myself being one) who just go through the motions, who sin almost every second of the day according to the bible, but treat people and things so much better than the hard core believers. I just despise having people tell me what's right and wrong based off a book that has yet to provide any facts.

You know I preached an entire series through the book of Job that deals with the question Why do bad things happen to good people? That is also called "The problem of Evil." Almost every philosophy book handles that issue.

 

If you would like, I can send you copies of my sermon notes over job. I do not think I have a tape of it.

 

One common way to deal with these questions is the ole' misdirect. And it starts with re-framing the question. Why do bad things happen to good people? becomes "the problem of evil" Why do bad things happen to good people? If you have an answer, I am sincerely interested. I have an answer: there is no god and bad things happen to everyone.

@MayfieldFan, I accept that two thinking people can look at the same evidence and draw different conclusions. Perhaps you have delved deeply into it and have drawn conclusions that are different than my own. Christian Apologists who write on the topic are quite interesting and their arguments, for the most part, cohere with themselves. Perhaps even more interesting are those who were atheists/agnostics but after considering the evidence became Christians or in some cases, theists, though not Christian theists.

 

@B-Ball-fan, is that really the Reader's Digest version?

 

@Jackie Ed, I do question how much you have thought through your conclusions. The way you misrepresent the Catholic faith and its teaching makes me wonder if you understand what it really teaches. This statement of yours does not represent Catholic teaching at all:

 

As long as we go to church, drop that envelope in the collection basket, take communion and go to confession we have all our sins absolved.

 

This is the proverbial "straw man." BTW, I am not Catholic and have no particular attachment to Catholic teaching.

 

On another point, if I can provide some "facts" from the Bible will you reconsider your unbelief? Seems like a small threshhold to overcome to me. Just a little friendly push-back here. You can tell me to bug-off if you want.

 

FWIW, to the atheists/agnostics who have posted, I have not been offended by any of the testimonies presented by atheists here. They (you) are stating your personal experience. You have drawn conclusions based on your experience and thought. To you, religious stories seem like myth, fairy tales, delusions, etc., And those who believe such things appear to you to have their head in the sand (I cleaned it up). That is how you view it. I am not offended by an honest opinion, though I may not agree with it.

 

Peace to all of you.

One common way to deal with these questions is the ole' misdirect. And it starts with re-framing the question. Why do bad things happen to good people? becomes "the problem of evil" Why do bad things happen to good people? If you have an answer, I am sincerely interested. I have an answer: there is no god and bad things happen to everyone.

 

That is a huge question and the biggest barrier for anyone to overcome. I have the answer but I'd have to "get there." I can't just give a blunt 5 sentence answer. It actually took 6 sermons to explain what bad things are, why bad things happen in general, why bad things happen to good people, and why god allows those bad things to happen to those good people.

 

I can answer it but you may say "I have misdirected" or am just babbling on with giving a straight response.

 

But if you wish, I am still prepared to respond.

That is a huge question and the biggest barrier for anyone to overcome. I have the answer but I'd have to "get there." I can't just give a blunt 5 sentence answer. It actually took 6 sermons to explain what bad things are[/I], why bad things happen in general, why bad things happen to good people, and why god allows those bad things to happen to those good people.

 

I can answer it but you may say "I have misdirected" or am just babbling on with giving a straight response.

 

But if you wish, I am still prepared to respond.

 

With reference to the first part that italicized there, it is a huge question and a big barrier to overcome ONLY when one assumes at the start the existence of god. (a loving personal god). If one does not assume the existence of god, the answer is kinda easy. Bad things happen to good people because there is no god, bad things happen to all people. Doesn't take six sermons to get there that way .

 

The other part I italicized brings up a fair point, where you indicated that you defined what "bad things" are. I know mother theresa for example used to say that people living in abject poverty with no food or health care were blessed because it brought them closer to jesus. (that's a paraphrase). I find that to be profoundly unpersuasive. But, if you want, we can re-phrase the question in a way that avoids any issue with having to define "bad thing." For example we could ask "why does god allow little children to be kidnapped, raped, and then killed?" My answer would be: god doesn't exist, so he can't prevent that. And you would be spared having to define "bad things" as that is clearly a bad thing. You could skip straight ahead to the answer.

 

I would be interested in your answer to the question, either of them. I have answered both already. If it is a long answer, so be it, it's your answer, not mine. I will consider them with an open mind, sort of. I have heard many answers to this already, and haven't liked them yet. You might surprise me, and I am open to that (I would hope). Worst case scenario is you give your answer, I show you what I think the failings of it are, and it furthers the discussion of this thread.

 

edit: your whole quote is ital, im an idiot. I will bold it instead.