I was reading a post by MayfieldFan the other day and his story kinda reminded me of mine. I wasn't a deacon in the church like him but I grew up in the church(Southern Baptist), was there Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night(training union and prayer meeting), and most any other time the doors were open. I even helped him ring the big church bell on Sunday mornings. A lot of good memories.We lived right next to the church and my grandfather was the church's caretaker(custodian). From the time I was tiny, attending church was just the thing that good little boys and girls do. Didn't really give it any other thought.

 

Then I grew up. I started to think about the things I had been told and the ideas that had been put into my head from childhood. None of what I was told all those years seemed to add up to what my rational, adult mind observed and processed. I do not believe that my elders were intentionally trying to deceive me like they did with Santa Claus. I just believe their elders brainwashed them with the same nonsensical fables that the elders before them passed along as truth.

 

One thing that I have noticed with a lot of agnostics and atheists is that many of them at a previous time in their lives were faithful church attendees, Sunday School teachers, pastors and deacons. I know several non-believers myself who were former SS teachers or preachers. These are all people who now claim that they either thought it was real at the time or had doubts and just went a long with the program but realize it now for what it is - myth, superstition, and scare tactics - none of it based on one scintilla of real evidence.

 

Speaking just for me, myth and superstition gave way to science and rational thinking as I grew older and was freed from the bondage of religious thought. I appreciated the description that one of our members used to describe himself the other day- " spiritual agnostic." I do believe a person can be spiritual and feel a oneness with the Universe without being bound to the utter silliness of man's religions. Humans long to feel significant in the Universe and so over thousands and thousands of years they've created one silly God after another to make themselves feel more important than they really are.

 

To quote Sagan: "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Religion is all about delusion and it's a dangerous delusion. Religion inhibits rational thought. I reached a point in my life where persisting in a belief in something just to feel comforted and reassured was no longer comforting or reassuring. I needed to grasp the Universe as it really is in order to know who I really am and what I want in my life. Magic and superstition no longer sufficed. Science opened the door to a whole new evidence-based reality.

 

I am really interested in why some of our atheists and agnostics got to the point they are now, believing as you do. Did you come from a religious background? Why did you walk away from the God delusion?

Thanks.

Edited March 8, 201610 yr by Science Friction

:popcorn:I've been waiting for this movie to start for 6 hours as I have been sitting in recovery wallowing in my own self pity.

Science Friction, if you want to start a thread asking about why/how some atheists and agnostics came to be that way, then go ahead and do that. In fact, a civil, adult, conversation like that would be something very interesting to me and I would look forward to adding to the discussion.

 

However, you have continually shown a trend of intolerance toward theists and you consistently mock, belittle, patronize, and frankly make light of a movement that 1000's of noble people have DIED for throughout history. You have every right in America and in the world to post whatever you want and word it however you feel. But I must ask, why? Please, I beg you, tell me: what does using the below bolded quotations do for you?

 

I was reading a post by MayfieldFan the other day and his story kinda reminded me of mine. I wasn't a deacon in the church like him but I grew up in the church(Southern Baptist), was there Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night(training union and prayer meeting), and most any other time the doors were open. I even helped him ring the big church bell on Sunday mornings. A lot of good memories.We lived right next to the church and my grandfather was the church's caretaker(custodian). From the time I was tiny, attending church was just the thing that good little boys and girls do. Didn't really give it any other thought.

 

Then I grew up. I started to think about the things I had been told and the ideas that had been put into my head from childhood. None of what I was told all those years seemed to add up to what my rational, adult mind observed and processed. I do not believe that my elders were intentionally trying to deceive me like they did with Santa Claus. I just believe their elders brainwashed them with the same nonsensical fables that the elders before them passed along as truth.

 

One thing that I have noticed with a lot of agnostics and atheists is that many of them at a previous time in their lives were faithful church attendees, Sunday School teachers, pastors and deacons. I know several non-believers myself who were former SS teachers or preachers. These are all people who now claim that they either thought it was real at the time or had doubts and just went a long with the program but realize it now for what it is - myth, superstition, and scare tactics - none of it based on one scintilla of real evidence.

 

Speaking just for me, myth and superstition gave way to science and rational thinking as I grew older and was freed from the bondage of religious thought. I appreciated the description that one of our members used to describe himself the other day- " spiritual agnostic." I do believe a person can be spiritual and feel a oneness with the Universe without being bound to the utter silliness of man's religions. Humans long to feel significant in the Universe and so over thousands and thousands of years they've created one silly God after another to make themselves feel more important than they really are.

 

To quote Sagan: "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Religion is all about delusion and it's a dangerous delusion. Religion inhibits rational thought. I reached a point in my life where persisting in a belief in something just to feel comforted and reassured was no longer comforting or reassuring. I needed to grasp the Universe as it really is in order to know who I really am and what I want in my life. Magic and superstition no longer sufficed. Science opened the door to a whole new evidence-based reality.

 

I am really interested in why some of our atheists and agnostics got to the point they are now, believing as you do. Did you come from a religious background? Why did you walk away from the God delusion?

Thanks.

 

 

And as you continue to bash Christianity and those who believe in it, please remember that every challenge my faith is faced with merely strengthens it every time. And using terms like "brainwashed" and "delusion" is implying that me and every single Christian in the world has not questioned our faith at one time or another. Its insulting and quite frankly demeaning. I am an adult, who rationally has read, researched, and consulted people smarter than I about matters of faith I am not sure about. So was I was just brainwashed as a child and am I incapable of thinking on my own?

 

Have a good night.

Two issues here:

 

One: whether this is a violation of that rule quoted. I don't think so, but conceivably it could be if one were to apply that rule in a certain way. However, if one were to apply that rule that way, then that rule would be more honored in it's breach in the political/controversial forums. I think saying that in the football forum would be wrong, but not a violation in forums designed to have contentious discussions.

 

Two: the issues raised by @InItToWinIt , which doesn't call for a violation of the rule, but focuses on the alleged insulting way. I will keep this short, but it is hard to discuss this without ruffling feathers. For example, many atheists' journey includes a time where they read the stories about god, and take a measure of god's character. If we can't mention our thoughts about this, then no need to have a discussion board at all, but admittedly doing so has the tendency to be offensive to some. If you love god, walk with him every day, etc etc, I can see how you might not want to hear a negative assessment about god. Not sure there is a way around that. I think it is an important right to preserve, the ability to speak freely, and I defend SF's right to do so, and yours, and I think this is an important conversation to have. Important enough that the price, which may be unavoidable, is worth it.

This topic was intended for non-believers only. I am especially interested in why those(like myself) who were raised in the church got to the point of where they are now.

I'm going to assume that most Christians in the world and here on BGP consider Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate to have been delusional, and wouldn't think twice about saying so, or think that you were being insulting by stating it as such.

 

Though Christian based, his teachings deviated from what most Christians have been exposed to in their teachings.

 

Most Christians raised with beliefs that are taught on a mass scale, pretty much see them as commonplace beliefs, and accept them without too much question considering it's what they've been exposed to their whole lives.

 

Certainly it seems true and real to them because it's been part of their makeup from the time they were born, so it feels completely second nature to believe what they believe, and because millions of others believe it too it helps to reinforce it as being the truth to them.

 

Though your Christian beliefs seem perfectly normal to you while I'll assume that you consider Marshall Applewhite's beliefs to be the creation of a nut job, my question to you Christians is how are your beliefs any less delusional than Marshall Applewhite's?

 

His beliefs were not based on any proof and neither are yours.

 

Sure, he was in a minority with his beliefs, and you are a member of millions who believe what you do, but do more people believing in something unprovable make it anymore real than the unprovable beliefs that Mr. Applewhite and his 39 followers believed in?

 

Though Atheists and Agnostics might be in minority in this world, when they state that their reasons for being so is that they find religious teachings to be delusional, they are merely stating what they have deducted it to be from their analysis.

 

The millions upon millions of religious people in the world (with absolutely no proof in what they believe in) never hesitate to profess their beliefs, and because they are in the majority consider it to be completely acceptable to do so, but take offense when an agnostic or atheist states their disbelief because they find it to be delusional.

 

What's wrong with Atheists and Agnostics also having their say? Whereas you might think that it's insulting that someone would deem religious beliefs as delusional, has it ever occurred to you that for an Agnostic or an Atheist it's completely insulting to their intelligence to have to on a daily basis navigate through the general public that appears to be ate up with religious delusion, and to be constantly subjected to them and their lunacy?

 

Many of us do quite well with it considering how outnumbered we are, and considering we are surrounded by the likes of religious people, certainly you should be able to handle it when once in a while you encounter those who aren't too keen about sharing with you in your unprovable belief system and delusion.

 

I find Marshall Applewhite to have been a nut job, and I bet that you do to, but how are you any less of a nut than he is considering that you both believed in the unprovable?

 

It's easy for you to see it in him, but it's not easy for you to see it in yourself, and to reinforce this, you have millions of others who help you consider yourself quite normal.

 

If you can convince a million people that 2+2=5 does that make them correct?

Edited March 9, 201610 yr by B-Ball-fan

This topic was intended for non-believers only. I am especially interested in why those(like myself) who were raised in the church got to the point of where they are now.

 

:popcorn: Still waiting. I am actually interested in hearing these stories as well.

Don't get worked about about it @InItToWinIt. Just pray for him and don't waste your time in this thread.

Don't get worked about about it @InItToWinIt. Just pray for him and don't waste your time in this thread.

 

Good advice.

I'm going to assume that most Christians in the world and here on BGP consider Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate to have been delusional, and wouldn't think twice about saying so, or think that you were being insulting by stating it as such.

 

Though Christian based, his teachings deviated from what most Christians have been exposed to in their teachings.

 

Most Christians raised with beliefs that are taught on a mass scale, pretty much see them as commonplace beliefs, and accept them without too much question considering it's what they've been exposed to their whole lives.

 

Certainly it seems true and real to them because it's been part of their makeup from the time they were born, so it feels completely second nature to believe what they believe, and because millions of others believe it too it helps to reinforce it as being the truth to them.

 

Though your Christian beliefs seem perfectly normal to you while I'll assume that you consider Marshall Applewhite's beliefs to be the creation of a nut job, my question to you Christians is how are your beliefs any less delusional than Marshall Applewhite's?

 

His beliefs were not based on any proof and neither are yours.

 

Sure, he was in a minority with his beliefs, and you are a member of millions who believe what you do, but do more people believing in something unprovable make it anymore real than the unprovable beliefs that Mr. Applewhite and his 39 followers believed in?

 

Though Atheists and Agnostics might be in minority in this world, when they state that their reasons for being so is that they find religious teachings to be delusional, they are merely stating what they have deducted it to be from their analysis.

 

The millions upon millions of religious people in the world (with absolutely no proof in what they believe in) never hesitate to profess their beliefs, and because they are in the majority consider it to be completely acceptable to do so, but take offense when an agnostic or atheist states their disbelief because they find it to be delusional.

 

What's wrong with Atheists and Agnostics also having their say? Whereas you might think that it's insulting that someone would deem religious beliefs as delusional, has it ever occurred to you that for an Agnostic or an Atheist it's completely insulting to their intelligence to have to on a daily basis navigate through the general public that appears to be ate up with religious delusion, and to be constantly subjected to them and their lunacy?

 

Many of us do quite well with it considering how outnumbered we are, and considering we are surrounded by the likes of religious people, certainly you should be able to handle it when once in a while you encounter those who aren't too keen about sharing with you in your unprovable belief system and delusion.

 

I find Marshall Applewhite to have been a nut job, and I bet that you do to, but how are you any less of a nut than he is considering that you both believed in the unprovable?

 

It's easy for you to see it in him, but it's not easy for you to see it in yourself, and to reinforce this, you have millions of others who help you consider yourself quite normal.

 

If you can convince a million people that 2+2=5 does that make them correct?

 

Exceptional post. One of your best and that says a lot because all of your posts are incredible.I have referenced Mr Applewhite on here numerous times. Christians on here have pretty much ignored said references. I think it makes them uncomfortable because they know that what they believe is not very much different from what Mr Applewhite and his followers believed.

I'm going to assume that most Christians in the world and here on BGP consider Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate to have been delusional, and wouldn't think twice about saying so, or think that you were being insulting by stating it as such.

 

Though Christian based, his teachings deviated from what most Christians have been exposed to in their teachings.

 

Most Christians raised with beliefs that are taught on a mass scale, pretty much see them as commonplace beliefs, and accept them without too much question considering it's what they've been exposed to their whole lives.

 

Certainly it seems true and real to them because it's been part of their makeup from the time they were born, so it feels completely second nature to believe what they believe, and because millions of others believe it too it helps to reinforce it as being the truth to them.

 

Though your Christian beliefs seem perfectly normal to you while I'll assume that you consider Marshall Applewhite's beliefs to be the creation of a nut job, my question to you Christians is how are your beliefs any less delusional than Marshall Applewhite's?

 

His beliefs were not based on any proof and neither are yours.

 

Sure, he was in a minority with his beliefs, and you are a member of millions who believe what you do, but do more people believing in something unprovable make it anymore real than the unprovable beliefs that Mr. Applewhite and his 39 followers believed in?

 

Though Atheists and Agnostics might be in minority in this world, when they state that their reasons for being so is that they find religious teachings to be delusional, they are merely stating what they have deducted it to be from their analysis.

 

The millions upon millions of religious people in the world (with absolutely no proof in what they believe in) never hesitate to profess their beliefs, and because they are in the majority consider it to be completely acceptable to do so, but take offense when an agnostic or atheist states their disbelief because they find it to be delusional.

 

What's wrong with Atheists and Agnostics also having their say? Whereas you might think that it's insulting that someone would deem religious beliefs as delusional, has it ever occurred to you that for an Agnostic or an Atheist it's completely insulting to their intelligence to have to on a daily basis navigate through the general public that appears to be ate up with religious delusion, and to be constantly subjected to them and their lunacy?

 

Many of us do quite well with it considering how outnumbered we are, and considering we are surrounded by the likes of religious people, certainly you should be able to handle it when once in a while you encounter those who aren't too keen about sharing with you in your unprovable belief system and delusion.

 

I find Marshall Applewhite to have been a nut job, and I bet that you do to, but how are you any less of a nut than he is considering that you both believed in the unprovable?

 

It's easy for you to see it in him, but it's not easy for you to see it in yourself, and to reinforce this, you have millions of others who help you consider yourself quite normal.

 

If you can convince a million people that 2+2=5 does that make them correct?

 

Great question. And, of course, the answer is a resounding "no."

 

Btw , B-Ball-fan, this post of yours is HALL OF FAME worthy. Incredible.

:popcorn: Still waiting. I am actually interested in hearing these stories as well.

 

As a child, I was in church, baptist, three times a week mostly, occasionally skipping the Wednesday service. I did bible drill, don't know if they still do that. Participants would stand on a line, and then a verse would be called, and you would step forward in a race. The first to step forward would have to recite the verse perfectly. Also they would state a verse and you would have to find it in the bible, put your finger on it, and step forward. There were competitions, local, state, regional, national. I won many championships and at the height of my powers (lol) having done this for years, I could recite probably 300 verses and turn immediately to almost any page in my bible. If i didnt hit the page, I would never be more than 1 or 2 off.

I was baptized when I was 12, as that was the age of accountability. If a child under 12 died, they went to heaven. If a child over 12 died, unbaptized, they went to hell.

All that time I had questions. I remember at a very young age questioning the noah and the ark. Was told that the rainbow was god's sign that he would never flood the earth again. And I asked "but he could burn the earth up?" I can't remember the answer.

This situation more or less just kept building all my life. Around the time my son was born, I was also asked to be a deacon, which i did for a little over a year. It was those two things that made me let it go. I knew as a deacon I sucked badly, because I know longer believed. Was easier to just go to church and be inactive as a non-believer, the deacon responsibilities required me to act on beliefs I no longer held. So I resigned and not soon after left the church totally.

As far as how I think about things, the first conclusion was for me that there is no god. Once that was part of me, then all those stories get cast in a different light. There are many parts of the bible, and church doctrine, that believers recite as an example of xxxx (fill in the blank). But when you don't believe, the stories/doctrines often take a more ominous tone. For example, the moses story. Believers tend to see the passover as god delivering his people out of slavery. But the story involves the murder of innocent first born Egyptian children.

So the progression is kind of 1. there is no god and then 2. this fictional god character is a real jerk. (This is why I say above it's impossible to discuss without ruffling feathers, or at the very least impossible to discuss fully, openly, and honestly).

The final step of the progression, for me, was to see the ways in which religion invades our society, holds us back. And to decide to fight against that, to demand upon a public sphere where there is separation of church and state and where everyone gives a little so that we can have a public sphere that shows no preferences. Many christians want their beliefs to have legal preferences and think when they don't get it, that they are the only ones being "persecuted." To which I say bull hockey. I make allowances to respect other's rights every single day, without complaint. The same should be returned..in our public sphere, which I see as courts, schools, businesses etc. The places we all share.

As a child, I was in church, baptist, three times a week mostly, occasionally skipping the Wednesday service. I did bible drill, don't know if they still do that. Participants would stand on a line, and then a verse would be called, and you would step forward in a race. The first to step forward would have to recite the verse perfectly. Also they would state a verse and you would have to find it in the bible, put your finger on it, and step forward. There were competitions, local, state, regional, national. I won many championships and at the height of my powers (lol) having done this for years, I could recite probably 300 verses and turn immediately to almost any page in my bible. If i didnt hit the page, I would never be more than 1 or 2 off.

I was baptized when I was 12, as that was the age of accountability. If a child under 12 died, they went to heaven. If a child over 12 died, unbaptized, they went to hell.

All that time I had questions. I remember at a very young age questioning the noah and the ark. Was told that the rainbow was god's sign that he would never flood the earth again. And I asked "but he could burn the earth up?" I can't remember the answer.

This situation more or less just kept building all my life. Around the time my son was born, I was also asked to be a deacon, which i did for a little over a year. It was those two things that made me let it go. I knew as a deacon I sucked badly, because I know longer believed. Was easier to just go to church and be inactive as a non-believer, the deacon responsibilities required me to act on beliefs I no longer held. So I resigned and not soon after left the church totally.

As far as how I think about things, the first conclusion was for me that there is no god. Once that was part of me, then all those stories get cast in a different light. There are many parts of the bible, and church doctrine, that believers recite as an example of xxxx (fill in the blank). But when you don't believe, the stories/doctrines often take a more ominous tone. For example, the moses story. Believers tend to see the passover as god delivering his people out of slavery. But the story involves the murder of innocent first born Egyptian children.

So the progression is kind of 1. there is no god and then 2. this fictional god character is a real jerk. (This is why I say above it's impossible to discuss without ruffling feathers, or at the very least impossible to discuss fully, openly, and honestly).

The final step of the progression, for me, was to see the ways in which religion invades our society, holds us back. And to decide to fight against that, to demand upon a public sphere where there is separation of church and state and where everyone gives a little so that we can have a public sphere that shows no preferences. Many christians want their beliefs to have legal preferences and think when they don't get it, that they are the only ones being "persecuted." To which I say bull hockey. I make allowances to respect other's rights every single day, without complaint. The same should be returned..in our public sphere, which I see as courts, schools, businesses etc. The places we all share.

 

 

Very true. Next to impossible. Yet some clamor for you to "face repercussions" for speaking your views fully, openly, and honestly.

As a child, I was in church, baptist, three times a week mostly, occasionally skipping the Wednesday service. I did bible drill, don't know if they still do that. Participants would stand on a line, and then a verse would be called, and you would step forward in a race. The first to step forward would have to recite the verse perfectly. Also they would state a verse and you would have to find it in the bible, put your finger on it, and step forward. There were competitions, local, state, regional, national. I won many championships and at the height of my powers (lol) having done this for years, I could recite probably 300 verses and turn immediately to almost any page in my bible. If i didnt hit the page, I would never be more than 1 or 2 off.

I was baptized when I was 12, as that was the age of accountability. If a child under 12 died, they went to heaven. If a child over 12 died, unbaptized, they went to hell.

All that time I had questions. I remember at a very young age questioning the noah and the ark. Was told that the rainbow was god's sign that he would never flood the earth again. And I asked "but he could burn the earth up?" I can't remember the answer.

This situation more or less just kept building all my life. Around the time my son was born, I was also asked to be a deacon, which i did for a little over a year. It was those two things that made me let it go. I knew as a deacon I sucked badly, because I know longer believed. Was easier to just go to church and be inactive as a non-believer, the deacon responsibilities required me to act on beliefs I no longer held. So I resigned and not soon after left the church totally.

As far as how I think about things, the first conclusion was for me that there is no god. Once that was part of me, then all those stories get cast in a different light. There are many parts of the bible, and church doctrine, that believers recite as an example of xxxx (fill in the blank). But when you don't believe, the stories/doctrines often take a more ominous tone. For example, the moses story. Believers tend to see the passover as god delivering his people out of slavery. But the story involves the murder of innocent first born Egyptian children.

So the progression is kind of 1. there is no god and then 2. this fictional god character is a real jerk. (This is why I say above it's impossible to discuss without ruffling feathers, or at the very least impossible to discuss fully, openly, and honestly).

The final step of the progression, for me, was to see the ways in which religion invades our society, holds us back. And to decide to fight against that, to demand upon a public sphere where there is separation of church and state and where everyone gives a little so that we can have a public sphere that shows no preferences. Many christians want their beliefs to have legal preferences and think when they don't get it, that they are the only ones being "persecuted." To which I say bull hockey. I make allowances to respect other's rights every single day, without complaint. The same should be returned..in our public sphere, which I see as courts, schools, businesses etc. The places we all share.

 

These are the stories I was looking for and wanted to know more about . Thank you. Terrific post. Any other atheists/ agnostics ? Even if you are a deacon just playing your church role but you are agnostic at heart I'd love to hear your story.

As a child, I was in church, baptist, three times a week mostly, occasionally skipping the Wednesday service. I did bible drill, don't know if they still do that. Participants would stand on a line, and then a verse would be called, and you would step forward in a race. The first to step forward would have to recite the verse perfectly. Also they would state a verse and you would have to find it in the bible, put your finger on it, and step forward. There were competitions, local, state, regional, national. I won many championships and at the height of my powers (lol) having done this for years, I could recite probably 300 verses and turn immediately to almost any page in my bible. If i didnt hit the page, I would never be more than 1 or 2 off.

I was baptized when I was 12, as that was the age of accountability. If a child under 12 died, they went to heaven. If a child over 12 died, unbaptized, they went to hell.

All that time I had questions. I remember at a very young age questioning the noah and the ark. Was told that the rainbow was god's sign that he would never flood the earth again. And I asked "but he could burn the earth up?" I can't remember the answer.

This situation more or less just kept building all my life. Around the time my son was born, I was also asked to be a deacon, which i did for a little over a year. It was those two things that made me let it go. I knew as a deacon I sucked badly, because I know longer believed. Was easier to just go to church and be inactive as a non-believer, the deacon responsibilities required me to act on beliefs I no longer held. So I resigned and not soon after left the church totally.

As far as how I think about things, the first conclusion was for me that there is no god. Once that was part of me, then all those stories get cast in a different light. There are many parts of the bible, and church doctrine, that believers recite as an example of xxxx (fill in the blank). But when you don't believe, the stories/doctrines often take a more ominous tone. For example, the moses story. Believers tend to see the passover as god delivering his people out of slavery. But the story involves the murder of innocent first born Egyptian children.

So the progression is kind of 1. there is no god and then 2. this fictional god character is a real jerk. (This is why I say above it's impossible to discuss without ruffling feathers, or at the very least impossible to discuss fully, openly, and honestly).

The final step of the progression, for me, was to see the ways in which religion invades our society, holds us back. And to decide to fight against that, to demand upon a public sphere where there is separation of church and state and where everyone gives a little so that we can have a public sphere that shows no preferences. Many christians want their beliefs to have legal preferences and think when they don't get it, that they are the only ones being "persecuted." To which I say bull hockey. I make allowances to respect other's rights every single day, without complaint. The same should be returned..in our public sphere, which I see as courts, schools, businesses etc. The places we all share.

 

Careful... you're mocking ! LOL