Two issues here:

 

One: whether this is a violation of that rule quoted. I don't think so, but conceivably it could be if one were to apply that rule in a certain way. However, if one were to apply that rule that way, then that rule would be more honored in it's breach in the political/controversial forums. I think saying that in the football forum would be wrong, but not a violation in forums designed to have contentious discussions.

 

Two: the issues raised by @InItToWinIt , which doesn't call for a violation of the rule, but focuses on the alleged insulting way. I will keep this short, but it is hard to discuss this without ruffling feathers. For example, many atheists' journey includes a time where they read the stories about god, and take a measure of god's character. If we can't mention our thoughts about this, then no need to have a discussion board at all, but admittedly doing so has the tendency to be offensive to some. If you love god, walk with him every day, etc etc, I can see how you might not want to hear a negative assessment about god. Not sure there is a way around that. I think it is an important right to preserve, the ability to speak freely, and I defend SF's right to do so, and yours, and I think this is an important conversation to have. Important enough that the price, which may be unavoidable, is worth it.

 

Like I said in my original post, I have no problem with a forum about an atheists/agnostics journey. I would actually be fascinated to learn about perspectives 180 degrees from mine.

 

But did you read the bolded portions of my quote in post #3? "Nonsensical, magic, superstition, delusional" - these are insults. Let's keep this discussion open while showing basic respect, common courtesy, and tolerance towards other people's beliefs. Like I said, this is a fascinating subject. Let's keep it relevant and not shame others who believe differently.

 

Lastly, my apologies for breaking the tattle tale rule.

I have on multiple occasions described my religious background, so at the risk of delivering here a book length biography I will do my best to be as concise as I possibly can. I honestly don't know how to cover it all, or which approach I'd like to take in describing, but here goes...

 

I was raised in a Catholic family by old school Catholic parents in an old Catholic neighborhood surrounded by much the same.

 

I got a dose of teaching early on that my non-Catholic neighbors no matter how Christian were not going to Heaven considering they followed the wrong branch of Christianity. Purgatory was the best they were ever going to experience.

 

I felt sorry for them, but felt ever so lucky that I was raised in the right branch of Christianity.

 

I was sent to Catholic grade school where daily Mass was part of my routine, meaning that until the age of 14 I attended church 6 days a week during the school year with Sunday being a Holy Day of Obligation, and it was a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday or else you'd go to Hell when you die unless you went to confession to ask for forgiveness for having missed. There are also about 10 other Holy Days of Obligation throughout the calendar year that require attendance as well or else.

 

Following that, I also attended 4 years of Catholic high school where daily Mass was not enforced.

 

Many of my teachers at a young age were nuns, and priests were also a very strong influence as well. I learned early on how much of a pat on the back I'd get from the nuns by being a good little Catholic boy and participate in church, know all the refrains, sing out loud and volunteer to read readings at Mass.

 

I have relatives who are priests and nuns and through that type of exposure even quietly considered at an early age the my gayness (that I was well aware of very young without choice) was a sign from God that I was being called to be a Priest considering I knew early on that I was not likely to ever marry and father children. (There are many others like myself that weren't inclined to be straight fathers either, but through social pressures married anyhow and remained in a suffocating closet for the rest or most of their lives).

 

When I became older and realized how many gay priests and nuns there are, I understood because they too likely went through the same thing as young gay Catholics that I did, and also considered that their gayness was a sign from God to enter into Holy Orders.

 

Many too felt that it would save face with their families as well and that they would never have to reveal the truth about themselves. Many also mistakingly thought that miraculously their same sex desires would vanish through ordination. Many didn't set out to be deceptive, but when their hormones caught up with them many found themselves in the paradox of actively being gay all the while the leader of a religion that spoke out against it. Go figure.

 

I'm seriously glad that I didn't fall into that trap and that I had figured some things out before blindly walking down that path.

 

Deep down at a very early age I had questions about what I had been taught, but early on I did all that I could to just trust my teachers and to just believe.

 

When you are a small child you have very little to go on except for what you are exposed to, and since I was certain that my parents loved me I initially had no reason to question them. I know that they were only doing what they thought was best for me, and being believers themselves they only saw it as the right thing to do to expose me to Catholicism. I never felt it to be abusive, yet I am very thankful that I was eventually much more free to think for myself to distance myself from the unintentional brainwashing that I had been exposed to my entire childhood. I have many fond memories of my Catholic upbringing and can't say that I'd throw the baby out with the bath water. I am glad however that I am not a parent because it would be confusing to me how I'd raise my own children when I couldn't whole heartedly believe what I had be taught.

 

Each and every year brought more and more unanswerable questions for me, and during my teen years with a clearer mind than a young child would have, It became apparent to me that the elders who had been teaching me my whole life didn't know any more about the ultimate truth than I did. If I voiced my questions to those with no answers they typically got frustrated and tried to guilt me for asking.

 

These questions along with being gay without choice and seeing a society and religion that condemned gays, It also became apparent to me that the so called bearers of the truth didn't even understand homosexuality and that their heads were firmly stuck elsewhere. I was a non violent pretty decent student who wouldn't hurt a flea, yet somehow the punks that put down queers were celebrated and got a pass, and didn't seem too much different than religion who spoke out in hateful unloving terms towards gays. I started to think that if they were wrong about this, what else could they be wrong about.

 

It just all started to fall into place with me that religion was wishful thinking and brainwashing on a massive scale, and that no one could truly prove to me anything. I passionately wanted to know the truth while others it seemed were quite content with just believing everything they had been taught and were made to feel guilty to question it, and tried to make me feel guilty for questioning it.

 

I have noticed that my married with children friends are the ones who have remained devout Catholics while my friends gay or straight who didn't ever marry are not. It seems to me that the married ones keep themselves convinced that they believe or else it would cause themselves internal conflict to feel as if they were teaching their own children something that they didn't even believe in themselves, while my unmarried friends have been free to think for themselves and not worry how it was effecting offspring.

 

Little by little through questioning I realized that any of the guilt that I had been experiencing for questioning was put on me by the cult like mechanisms of religion, and thankfully little by little I was able to quit being effected by that guilt.

 

Just because I started recognizing that for me religion was a farce, it didn't mean that I still didn't want to know whether or not there was more to life than met the eye.

 

Is there a God? Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

 

I have never discarded the possibility that there are things that I just can't as a human completely understand, yet just because I don't know for sure doesn't mean there isn't something.

 

I've gravitated more during my adult life towards realism, but won't completely discount that there's possibly more to our existence than just our breathing moments as humans.

 

I've had various unexplainable things happen to me that I keep stored in my mental file cabinet that feel at times like glimpses into the unknown, and if inspiration for some better understanding can possibly come my way I will remain open to it, but my sense of spirituality in on a personal level and not related to a religion, and no longer will I allow the guilt of religion stifle my learning.

 

Believe you me, I feel tremendously lucky to be gay as it was a huge factor in allowing me to think for myself at a much younger age, and I feel tremendously lucky to have avoided the multitudes of traps that religion might've presented me such as being stuck in the lie of a straight marriage, or being a gay priest. I had figured out some stuff early enough to avoid all of that, and I feel sorry for those who hadn't because I just know what hell they've had to live because of.

Like I said in my original post, I have no problem with a forum about an atheists/agnostics journey. I would actually be fascinated to learn about perspectives 180 degrees from mine.

 

But did you read the bolded portions of my quote in post #3? "Nonsensical, magic, superstition, delusional" - these are insults. Let's keep this discussion open while showing basic respect, common courtesy, and tolerance towards other people's beliefs. Like I said, this is a fascinating subject. Let's keep it relevant and not shame others who believe differently.

 

Lastly, my apologies for breaking the tattle tale rule.

 

Call atheism "nonsensical, delusional, or silly" and I wouldn't be offended or upset in the least. I'm secure in what I believe and I wouldn't be offended any by the above descriptions of agnosticism. I probably would just skip over something that I thought might offend me.

Call atheism "nonsensical, delusional, or silly" and I wouldn't be offended or upset in the least. I'm secure in what I believe and I wouldn't be offended any by the above descriptions of agnosticism. I probably would just skip over something that I thought might offend me.

 

I will not call your beliefs that, because I don't necessarily believe atheism/agnosticism is nonsensical or delusional. I recognize that not everyone on earth was raised how I was, not everyone on earth has had the type of religious/secular exposure that I have had, and not everyone on earth has to believe what I believe.

 

Now, for those that do believe something different than I, I don't make fun of them. I don't patronize what they fight for, and I don't make a big joke out of it. I respect other people despite our differences.

I have on multiple occasions described my religious background, so at the risk of delivering here a book length biography I will do my best to be as concise as I possibly can. I honestly don't know how to cover it all, or which approach I'd like to take in describing, but here goes...

 

I was raised in a Catholic family by old school Catholic parents in an old Catholic neighborhood surrounded by much the same.

 

I got a dose of teaching early on that my non-Catholic neighbors no matter how Christian were not going to Heaven considering they followed the wrong branch of Christianity. Purgatory was the best they were ever going to experience.

 

I felt sorry for them, but felt ever so lucky that I was raised in the right branch of Christianity.

 

I was sent to Catholic grade school where daily Mass was part of my routine, meaning that until the age of 14 I attended church 6 days a week during the school year with Sunday being a Holy Day of Obligation, and it was a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday or else you'd go to Hell when you die unless you went to confession to ask for forgiveness for having missed. There are also about 10 other Holy Days of Obligation throughout the calendar year that require attendance as well or else.

 

Following that, I also attended 4 years of Catholic high school where daily Mass was not enforced.

 

Many of my teachers at a young age were nuns, and priests were also a very strong influence as well. I learned early on how much of a pat on the back I'd get from the nuns by being a good little Catholic boy and participate in church, know all the refrains, sing out loud and volunteer to read readings at Mass.

 

I have relatives who are priests and nuns and through that type of exposure even quietly considered at an early age the my gayness (that I was well aware of very young without choice) was a sign from God that I was being called to be a Priest considering I knew early on that I was not likely to ever marry and father children. (There are many others like myself that weren't inclined to be straight fathers either, but through social pressures married anyhow and remained in a suffocating closet for the rest or most of their lives).

 

When I became older and realized how many gay priests and nuns there are, I understood because they too likely went through the same thing as young gay Catholics that I did, and also considered that their gayness was a sign from God to enter into Holy Orders.

 

Many too felt that it would save face with their families as well and that they would never have to reveal the truth about themselves. Many also mistakingly thought that miraculously their same sex desires would vanish through ordination. Many didn't set out to be deceptive, but when their hormones caught up with them many found themselves in the paradox of actively being gay all the while the leader of a religion that spoke out against it. Go figure.

 

I'm seriously glad that I didn't fall into that trap and that I had figured some things out before blindly walking down that path.

 

Deep down at a very early age I had questions about what I had been taught, but early on I did all that I could to just trust my teachers and to just believe.

 

When you are a small child you have very little to go on except for what you are exposed to, and since I was certain that my parents loved me I initially had no reason to question them. I know that they were only doing what they thought was best for me, and being believers themselves they only saw it as the right thing to do to expose me to Catholicism. I never felt it to be abusive, yet I am very thankful that I was eventually much more free to think for myself to distance myself from the unintentional brainwashing that I had been exposed to my entire childhood. I have many fond memories of my Catholic upbringing and can't say that I'd throw the baby out with the bath water. I am glad however that I am not a parent because it would be confusing to me how I'd raise my own children when I couldn't whole heartedly believe what I had be taught.

 

Each and every year brought more and more unanswerable questions for me, and during my teen years with a clearer mind than a young child would have, It became apparent to me that the elders who had been teaching me my whole life didn't know any more about the ultimate truth than I did. If I voiced my questions to those with no answers they typically got frustrated and tried to guilt me for asking.

 

These questions along with being gay without choice and seeing a society and religion that condemned gays, It also became apparent to me that the so called bearers of the truth didn't even understand homosexuality and that their heads were firmly stuck elsewhere. I was a non violent pretty decent student who wouldn't hurt a flea, yet somehow the punks that put down queers were celebrated and got a pass, and didn't seem too much different than religion who spoke out in hateful unloving terms towards gays. I started to think that if they were wrong about this, what else could they be wrong about.

 

It just all started to fall into place with me that religion was wishful thinking and brainwashing on a massive scale, and that no one could truly prove to me anything. I passionately wanted to know the truth while others it seemed were quite content with just believing everything they had been taught and were made to feel guilty to question it, and tried to make me feel guilty for questioning it.

 

I have noticed that my married with children friends are the ones who have remained devout Catholics while my friends gay or straight who didn't ever marry are not. It seems to me that the married ones keep themselves convinced that they believe or else it would cause themselves internal conflict to feel as if they were teaching their own children something that they didn't even believe in themselves, while my unmarried friends have been free to think for themselves and not worry how it was effecting offspring.

 

Little by little through questioning I realized that any of the guilt that I had been experiencing for questioning was put on me by the cult like mechanisms of religion, and thankfully little by little I was able to quit being effected by that guilt.

 

Just because I started recognizing that for me religion was a farce, it didn't mean that I still didn't want to know whether or not there was more to life than met the eye.

 

Is there a God? Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

 

I have never discarded the possibility that there are things that I just can't as a human completely understand, yet just because I don't know for sure doesn't mean there isn't something.

 

I've gravitated more during my adult life towards realism, but won't completely discount that there's possibly more to our existence than just our breathing moments as humans.

 

I've had various unexplainable things happen to me that I keep stored in my mental file cabinet that feel at times like glimpses into the unknown, and if inspiration for some better understanding can possibly come my way I will remain open to it, but my sense of spirituality in on a personal level and not related to a religion, and no longer will I allow the guilt of religion stifle my learning.

 

Believe you me, I feel tremendously lucky to be gay as it was a huge factor in allowing me to think for myself at a much younger age, and I feel tremendously lucky to have avoided the multitudes of traps that religion might've presented me such as being stuck in the lie of a straight marriage, or being a gay priest. I had figured out some stuff early enough to avoid all of that, and I feel sorry for those who hadn't because I just know what hell they've had to live because of.

 

"Brainwashing" , "trap" , "cult", "farce", "wishful thinking"... CAREFUL ! You will be accused of mocking! They will call for you to face "repercussions" or expulsion . lol As I've asked many times , how else can one completely and HONESTLY discuss how one feels about religion without offending someone's sensibilities? I believe religion is brainwashing. I believe it is cultish behavior. I believe religion is a farce and wishful thinking. How can I (or MayfieldFan or B-Ball-Fan) say those things without saying those things?

 

Again, great post , by the way. Exactly what I was looking for. I was very moved by your words. You are incredible.

Edited March 9, 201610 yr by Science Friction

I will not call your beliefs that, because I don't necessarily believe atheism/agnosticism is nonsensical or delusional. I recognize that not everyone on earth was raised how I was, not everyone on earth has had the type of religious/secular exposure that I have had, and not everyone on earth has to believe what I believe.

 

Now, for those that do believe something different than I, I don't make fun of them. I don't patronize what they fight for, and I don't make a big joke out of it. I respect other people despite our differences.

 

Okay. fair enough. Do you have an issue with myself or B-Ball-Fan using terms like "cult," "brainwashing," "farce," "trap," "wishful thinking" to describe our honest views about religion ? I absolutely respect your right to believe in any god you want to believe in. If it makes you feel at peace and works for you, by all means. Respect my right to say it doesn't work for me and from my point of view it is all of the above things. You have a great evening.

but you are agnostic at heart .

 

:laugh: Intentional?

I'm a "practicing Catholic". I was raised catholic, went to catholic school grades 1-12. I quit believing around grade 6. All the stuff we read in the Bible just did not add up. People living to be 150, all the animals in the world crammed onto a boat? Two people being evicted from Eden after being duped by a talking snake. The fact that there is no mention of a female in the bible to start man-kind other than Eve. Did shev procreate with her sons?

 

I figures out relativity quickly pre-internet the bible was about as useful as Aesop's fables. Walking on water? Water to wine? Parting a sea? Manna falling from the sky? Lots wijfe turning into a pillar of salt? All old wives tales.

 

My real transformation started in sophomore year. Our religion teacher tried to defend the world was created in 7 days theory. " the bible says created in seven days but not what 7". Pushed the BS horn on that one.

 

Another hang up I have on religion as a whole, not just Christianity, is the amount of wars waged in the name of religion. What the hell? Why should I cares that they call their god muhhamed, theirs Yahweh and ours Christ? But it has been a problem since man started thinking on their own not as an animal (yes I'm saying EVOLUTION).

 

YET another problem I have is the "our God is a forgiving god". It is only forgiving BC man says so. If god is so forgiving why do we allow children to get cancer? Don't give me the " God is just testing your faith" line. What kind of god would do that to an innocent child?

 

How about we always need money (check out George Carlin on this topic). Rome has more than enough money to bail thousand of Catholic schools out of debt.

 

How can religion also ignore science? People whom truly believe the earth was created 5,000 years ago need to open a book and their mind. Its proven the esarth is billions of years old, giving credibility to evolution and debunking creationism.

 

My take is that religion is a way to co ntrol the masses and makes it easier to justify death.

 

Just BC you go to church and pray doesn't make you a good human. Its how you treat your common man.

I promise that I'm not looking for an anti-religion religion to join, but I must say that it is refreshing to be able to identify with others here who are on similar pages. As I'm sure that some of you have experienced, it's not everyday that you run into very many folks who even come anywhere near understanding where you are coming from.

 

Certainly none of you, or myself have the answer to the ultimate truth, but we have at least allowed ourselves to admit this, and understand that we are limited in possibly knowing, or what we can possibly know.

 

It would appear that throughout time the majority of humanity hasn't been satisfied with this realization, or even allowed themselves to realize it, therefore man-made concepts have been created to pacify those not willing to accept these limitations, and from that world religions have evolved, and have been passed down from generation to generation giving the false notion that their longevity is any proof of anything other than the power of human conditioning, and human behavior.

 

I certainly get wanting to know, but making stuff up instead of facing reality is not something that ever sat well with me.

 

It doesn't sit well with me either that these various world religions have been for centuries the root of conflict all the while claiming to be the truth, and guilting and forcing its followers to believe, or face eternal damnation.

 

It's not a mission of mine to prohibit others from living in fantasy, but it's important to me that they, no matter how many of them that there are, keep their fantasies in perspective and don't infringe on my rights to believe, or not believe however I believe.

 

As InItToWinIt has displayed it can be a shock to the system of the general public of religious believers that anyone would dare question religion or speak out against it negatively.

 

Because he is a believer, he takes it personally that others find it to be delusional.

 

He equates us referring to religion as delusional as us saying that he is delusional when no one directed that specific dialogue at him personally.

 

From where he sits, I can see where that might be hard to swallow, but he also might want to keep in perspective that the thing that we don't believe in that he does, is something that he can't prove, so though it's fine for him to believe it, and if if works for his life all the better, but it's a hard sale to plead for others to stop voicing their realist views so that his religious toes don't get stepped on.

 

There's really no other way around voicing what we feel without voicing what we feel.

 

Though he might not see it as such because he shares beliefs with millions, but him voicing his religious views might be a bit insulting to intelligent thinking people who have analyzed religion to death, and is why many of us have come to the realization that it has been generally for centuries a controlling human institution playing with the masses emotions and limitations of what they can truly know by saying "look no further, we have all the answers right here and with it the rules you are obligated to live by or else".

 

He's apart of a large portion of society that believes just as he does, so we must seem entirely bold and foreign to actually stand up and say that we have had enough of the bull crap in our lives, and that in our quest for knowledge we had to sort out reality from fantasy, and to peel away the layers of misguided conditioning that we had been subjected to much of our childhood in order for us to avoid living as delusional adults.

 

Because we are a minority who have been willing to do this doesn't make us any less valid in our conclusions.

 

The majority of the world would likely think that we are out of our minds, but I would venture to say that many of you have at times thought this exact thing of the majority of the world.

 

Anyhow the bottom line to what I initially wanted to say is that it's refreshing to know that I'm not alone in my way of thinking and that it's cool to know that there are a least a few people here and there that can relate.

 

It's suffocating enough to know that in the big picture I am a minority in thought, so it's good to know that there are others who are capable of thinking outside of the box. It's starting to sound a bit dated to say "thinking outside of the box" but somehow it still fits.

Certainly none of you, or myself have the answer to the ultimate truth,

 

:wave: Eh'hem

 

No, I'm totally joking.

I just can't comprehend how people of all religions can take orders and obey them without even thinking. With all the Information we have at our finger tips these days its just mind boggling that religion is still so powerful. I could understand up to even the 1950's people being scared into beliefs, but once the social revolution started In the 60's people started thinking for themselves More and more.

 

Religion uses scare tactics to keep their people subservient and in the case of catholics bringing that cash in. If you were void of info on various topics and all you were fed from the get go wed all brainwashed. But there is just to much information right on our cellphones to not at least open our eyes and minds just a tiny bit.

 

Yet another draw back to religion is the hundreds of wars raged and genocides carried out all in the name of peaceful religion. The catholic inquisitions, the crusades, the never going to end hatred between Jews and Muslims over a city, a specific site just BC they believe two different things.

 

Muslims are still the most violent of the ythree major religions and they havegovernments based on religion. The strangle hold the higher ups have on their people!e is just amazing. It makes no sense. I don't want to hate anyone just BC they believe something different than me.

 

People need to think for themselves.

I just can't comprehend how people of all religions can take orders and obey them without even thinking. With all the Information we have at our finger tips these days its just mind boggling that religion is still so powerful. I could understand up to even the 1950's people being scared into beliefs, but once the social revolution started In the 60's people started thinking for themselves More and more.

 

Religion uses scare tactics to keep their people subservient and in the case of catholics bringing that cash in. If you were void of info on various topics and all you were fed from the get go wed all brainwashed. But there is just to much information right on our cellphones to not at least open our eyes and minds just a tiny bit.

 

Yet another draw back to religion is the hundreds of wars raged and genocides carried out all in the name of peaceful religion. The catholic inquisitions, the crusades, the never going to end hatred between Jews and Muslims over a city, a specific site just BC they believe two different things.

 

Muslims are still the most violent of the ythree major religions and they havegovernments based on religion. The strangle hold the higher ups have on their people!e is just amazing. It makes no sense. I don't want to hate anyone just BC they believe something different than me.

 

People need to think for themselves.

 

I disagree with almost every point. But in this country I believe you have the right and say it. Be happy we live in America.

I'm a "practicing Catholic". I was raised catholic, went to catholic school grades 1-12. I quit believing around grade 6. All the stuff we read in the Bible just did not add up. People living to be 150, all the animals in the world crammed onto a boat? Two people being evicted from Eden after being duped by a talking snake. The fact that there is no mention of a female in the bible to start man-kind other than Eve. Did shev procreate with her sons?

 

I figures out relativity quickly pre-internet the bible was about as useful as Aesop's fables. Walking on water? Water to wine? Parting a sea? Manna falling from the sky? Lots wijfe turning into a pillar of salt? All old wives tales.

 

My real transformation started in sophomore year. Our religion teacher tried to defend the world was created in 7 days theory. " the bible says created in seven days but not what 7". Pushed the BS horn on that one.

 

Another hang up I have on religion as a whole, not just Christianity, is the amount of wars waged in the name of religion. What the hell? Why should I cares that they call their god muhhamed, theirs Yahweh and ours Christ? But it has been a problem since man started thinking on their own not as an animal (yes I'm saying EVOLUTION).

 

YET another problem I have is the "our God is a forgiving god". It is only forgiving BC man says so. If god is so forgiving why do we allow children to get cancer? Don't give me the " God is just testing your faith" line. What kind of god would do that to an innocent child?

 

How about we always need money (check out George Carlin on this topic). Rome has more than enough money to bail thousand of Catholic schools out of debt.

 

How can religion also ignore science? People whom truly believe the earth was created 5,000 years ago need to open a book and their mind. Its proven the esarth is billions of years old, giving credibility to evolution and debunking creationism.

 

My take is that religion is a way to co ntrol the masses and makes it easier to justify death.

 

Just BC you go to church and pray doesn't make you a good human. Its how you treat your common man.

 

Nothing in here that is contrary to Christianity. Many Christians would have the same issues that you raised yet remain committed Christians. These are not insurmountable intellectual issues. Open a book or two by Christian apologists and open your mind and you will find coherent, rational explanations for the Christian faith.

 

My next comments are not directed at Jackie Ed: It is simply not true that no one has asked difficult questions of the Christian faith until recently. Intellectual giants have been and still are believers. Equally rational and intelligent folks have also looked at the issues and concluded that God does not exist or that there isn't enough "evidence" for God's existence and therefore they cannot say the God does exist. But you can't say that all Christians have failed to examine the faith or that truly intelligent people cannot find intellectually satisfying reasons to believe.

I promise that I'm not looking for an anti-religion religion to join, but I must say that it is refreshing to be able to identify with others here who are on similar pages. As I'm sure that some of you have experienced, it's not everyday that you run into very many folks who even come anywhere near understanding where you are coming from.

 

Certainly none of you, or myself have the answer to the ultimate truth, but we have at least allowed ourselves to admit this, and understand that we are limited in possibly knowing, or what we can possibly know.

 

It would appear that throughout time the majority of humanity hasn't been satisfied with this realization, or even allowed themselves to realize it, therefore man-made concepts have been created to pacify those not willing to accept these limitations, and from that world religions have evolved, and have been passed down from generation to generation giving the false notion that their longevity is any proof of anything other than the power of human conditioning, and human behavior.

 

I certainly get wanting to know, but making stuff up instead of facing reality is not something that ever sat well with me.

 

It doesn't sit well with me either that these various world religions have been for centuries the root of conflict all the while claiming to be the truth, and guilting and forcing its followers to believe, or face eternal damnation.

 

It's not a mission of mine to prohibit others from living in fantasy, but it's important to me that they, no matter how many of them that there are, keep their fantasies in perspective and don't infringe on my rights to believe, or not believe however I believe.

 

As InItToWinIt has displayed it can be a shock to the system of the general public of religious believers that anyone would dare question religion or speak out against it negatively.

 

Because he is a believer, he takes it personally that others find it to be delusional.

He equates us referring to religion as delusional as us saying that he is delusional when no one directed that specific dialogue at him personally.

 

From where he sits, I can see where that might be hard to swallow, but he also might want to keep in perspective that the thing that we don't believe in that he does, is something that he can't prove, so though it's fine for him to believe it, and if if works for his life all the better, but it's a hard sale to plead for others to stop voicing their realist views so that his religious toes don't get stepped on.

 

There's really no other way around voicing what we feel without voicing what we feel.

 

Though he might not see it as such because he shares beliefs with millions, but him voicing his religious views might be a bit insulting to intelligent thinking people who have analyzed religion to death, and is why many of us have come to the realization that it has been generally for centuries a controlling human institution playing with the masses emotions and limitations of what they can truly know by saying "look no further, we have all the answers right here and with it the rules you are obligated to live by or else".

 

He's apart of a large portion of society that believes just as he does, so we must seem entirely bold and foreign to actually stand up and say that we have had enough of the bull crap in our lives, and that in our quest for knowledge we had to sort out reality from fantasy, and to peel away the layers of misguided conditioning that we had been subjected to much of our childhood in order for us to avoid living as delusional adults.

 

Because we are a minority who have been willing to do this doesn't make us any less valid in our conclusions.

 

The majority of the world would likely think that we are out of our minds, but I would venture to say that many of you have at times thought this exact thing of the majority of the world.

 

Anyhow the bottom line to what I initially wanted to say is that it's refreshing to know that I'm not alone in my way of thinking and that it's cool to know that there are a least a few people here and there that can relate.

 

It's suffocating enough to know that in the big picture I am a minority in thought, so it's good to know that there are others who are capable of thinking outside of the box. It's starting to sound a bit dated to say "thinking outside of the box" but somehow it still fits.

 

Please look at the bolded. In one instance, you say that you are calling the religion delusional and not the followers, yet you go on to say the believers are "delusional adults" and non-believers are "intelligent thinking people." You say that you've had enough of the bull crap, and that's not supposed to be insulting?

 

I'm supposed to believe that its not a shot at me? Its not a shot at the people like me? Its not a shot at what I truly feel in my heart and soul is the right thing and I consider the greatest part of my life?

 

I'm not even trying to convert you or change your way of thinking at this point, but I do ask that you do use basic respect when speaking about your disagreements with theism.

 

Every person on earth has a different brain and has had different experiences and different upbringings - so different views are okay. Let's not make Theists less valid because they are the majority, either.

 

 

Now, I want to be clear - the following is not how I feel. It is completely hypothetical. How would you feel if I called homosexual adults delusional? How would you feel if I said you voicing your homosexual feelings is insulting to straight people because there's no proof that its a natural biological function and I analyzed the hell out of it?

 

My point is, theism, Christianity in particular, is something that is in my heart and I have always felt there, just like your sexuality, which is absolutely fine. I know its not an apples to apples comparison, but if somebody truly believes in Christianity,it has to be the thing closest to his/her heart.

 

You don't have to accept that, but I please ask that you put yourself in my shoes before making fun of what is literally (in my view) the most important, awesome, biggest, greatest thing ever to exist in the history of the universe.

I'm a "practicing Catholic". I was raised catholic, went to catholic school grades 1-12. I quit believing around grade 6. All the stuff we read in the Bible just did not add up. People living to be 150, all the animals in the world crammed onto a boat? Two people being evicted from Eden after being duped by a talking snake. The fact that there is no mention of a female in the bible to start man-kind other than Eve. Did shev procreate with her sons?

 

I figures out relativity quickly pre-internet the bible was about as useful as Aesop's fables. Walking on water? Water to wine? Parting a sea? Manna falling from the sky? Lots wijfe turning into a pillar of salt? All old wives tales.

 

My real transformation started in sophomore year. Our religion teacher tried to defend the world was created in 7 days theory. " the bible says created in seven days but not what 7". Pushed the BS horn on that one.

 

Another hang up I have on religion as a whole, not just Christianity, is the amount of wars waged in the name of religion. What the hell? Why should I cares that they call their god muhhamed, theirs Yahweh and ours Christ? But it has been a problem since man started thinking on their own not as an animal (yes I'm saying EVOLUTION).

 

YET another problem I have is the "our God is a forgiving god". It is only forgiving BC man says so. If god is so forgiving why do we allow children to get cancer? Don't give me the " God is just testing your faith" line. What kind of god would do that to an innocent child?

 

How about we always need money (check out George Carlin on this topic). Rome has more than enough money to bail thousand of Catholic schools out of debt.

 

How can religion also ignore science? People whom truly believe the earth was created 5,000 years ago need to open a book and their mind. Its proven the esarth is billions of years old, giving credibility to evolution and debunking creationism.

 

My take is that religion is a way to co ntrol the masses and makes it easier to justify death.

 

Just BC you go to church and pray doesn't make you a good human. Its how you treat your common man.

 

Thank you. Nice post. This is what I was looking for. It seems as though most of us have similar stories. Thanks for your input , JE.