Right, that obviously affected his status and livelihood for the duration of his life, correct ?

 

I won't bend on this one...dude is not a national or state hero. He gets no respect from me (not that it matters to him or anyone else).

 

The irony is that he was an icon for the black struggle during a time when young men that were very similar to him likely needed someone to look up to. IMO he failed to provide adequate role modeling and likely a fair amount of disdain for those that were trying to stay alive day to day.

 

It's correct he didn't get to earn a living during those three and half years, but he didn't have anyone trying to kill him either....

 

I don't think you should budge from your conviction.

 

I would argue, as many experts do, that those 3 and a half years were the prime years of his career and they were lost. As great as he was, we will never know how much greater he would have been.

 

As to the Muslim Conversion, that was before his draft.

 

He did raise a good question being asked at the time by the African American community. His other quote was: "No Vietnamese ever called me a N*****."

 

Many others, children of the hawks, opted out of military duty by making certain that they either got deferments or National Guard Duty that would not put them in harm's way.

I quit reading this thread and it turned to Ali.

I think people who refuse to serve are cowards. But...there are differing levels of cowards. Those who used false or made up medical conditions ....big time cowards. A lot of them are in Washington now. Makes me puke. Those who, for whatever reason refused, but did so openly? Ummmm....yeah, I can't argue with coward label, but a much lesser version of it since they did take a stand for "fill in the blank." I can respect taking a stand, but when your country calls, you go.

I really have no issues with Ali, if he doesn't want to be involved in killing people, for whatever reason, that's fine with me.

 

But, are we ever going to get back to the thread topic?

I really have no issues with Ali, if he doesn't want to be involved in killing people, for whatever reason, that's fine with me.

But, are we ever going to get back to the thread topic?

 

Go for it. What do you have additionally to offer?

 

Seems like to me that Clyde and Birdbrain are having a valid discussion on the similarities and differences between Ali's situation and Davis's. However, if you have anything additional on the pope and Davis, by all means, discuss it.

Go for it. What do you have additionally to offer?

 

Seems like to me that Clyde and Birdbrain are having a valid discussion on the similarities and differences between Ali's situation and Davis's. However, if you have anything additional on the pope and Davis, by all means, discuss it.

 

Well, the Davis/Pope issue was not what the Davis side said to the media, the question on board the plane was a set up orchestrated by her lawyer. In fact, as of now, the Vatican is not releasing any photos of her with the pope and has altered all other photos of her in the background as they do not want anyone to use the pope for their agenda, and Rome is very upset at the whole issue, she must be the only person in the world who has ever met a pope that the Vatican says that they "regret the brief introduction ever took place".

 

Also, the people who set up the meeting and embarrassed Rome and the pope are in very deep water, heads are about to roll.

I'm on board with understanding that you supported her right and not necessarily her stance. That's the whole purpose of my questioning. We can disagree with the stance based on a religion but can we support one person and not the other because of the particular stance?

 

We all have hot buttons that can lead to inconsistencies. Is this one for you?

 

I don't think it's an inconsistency, because I really couldn't care less what religion is being bantered about. I do support a person's right to religious freedom and the practice of that religion.

 

Since both of the parties (Ali & Davis) took their stance on religious grounds, then that's good.

 

The most significant difference to me is that Davis was willing to go to jail for her convictions, Ali wasn't, and he had the means to avoid jail, which he did.

 

The secondary difference is that Ali wasn't being forced to kill or shoot at anyone, he could be a CO but still serve, he refused to comply with that, much like Kim Davis' stand.

 

Her 5 days is more respectful than his intentional refusal to support this country. In light of the numbers of poor and disadvantaged soldiers that essentially had no choice or means, his "civil disobedience" is much more of an issue for me.

Kim Davis appealed to everyone under the sun. She just didn't win. How is that different than what Ali did?

 

She did 5 days, he let his lawyers keep him out of jail forever. I firmly believe he wasn't prosecuted after the fact, like many were, because of his fame and status...show me a poor black man with limited education and no legs from his tour that agrees with Ali's stance and maybe I consider changing my mind.

To be fair, Ali was stripped of earning power for those three years. He had to resort to borrowing money from friends and rivals to stay afloat during that time. Joe Frazier even helped him out.

 

He's remained devout his entire life since taking up the Islamic faith. How is that not genuine to you? I take his a hell of a lot more seriously than Davis, who "found Jesus" and repented from her past ways of adultery. Seems to me like her conversion is more of a marriage of convenience than Ali's.

 

I give Kim Davis her leeway. Christianity allows for recognizing awareness of your sins, repenting and starting over...you have continually wanted to retrace to her past "sins".....I live in a glass house....

 

As for Ali's earning power, it may have affected him for those 3 years, but ultimately he was able to capitalize on his trade after the fact. Had he gone to Vietnam, and potentially been wounded or killed, that may not have happened.

 

How is that fair to the guy who lost his arm, leg, life who just wanted to get back home to his family and not be a world champion ? It's not, that's the answer....

I don't think you should budge from your conviction.

 

I would argue, as many experts do, that those 3 and a half years were the prime years of his career and they were lost. As great as he was, we will never know how much greater he would have been.As to the Muslim Conversion, that was before his draft.

He did raise a good question being asked at the time by the African American community. His other quote was: "No Vietnamese ever called me a N*****."

 

Many others, children of the hawks, opted out of military duty by making certain that they either got deferments or National Guard Duty that would not put them in harm's way.

 

Yes, 3 and half years may have been the prime and we will never know how much greater he would have been...or not, had he served when called on, in any capacity.

 

I don't disagree about the Muslim conversion, that was 1964....however, there was a draft at that time as well. Could be coincidental, or could be orchestrated....

I really have no issues with Ali, if he doesn't want to be involved in killing people, for whatever reason, that's fine with me.

 

But, are we ever going to get back to the thread topic?

 

Enjoy, I think the discussions I have had with some on here, which by the way were very civil in our disparate views, has run it's course. I appreciate the banter, at times we can only learn to view the opposite side of the coin when someone else holds it.

I don't think it's an inconsistency, because I really couldn't care less what religion is being bantered about. I do support a person's right to religious freedom and the practice of that religion.

 

Since both of the parties (Ali & Davis) took their stance on religious grounds, then that's good.

 

The most significant difference to me is that Davis was willing to go to jail for her convictions, Ali wasn't, and he had the means to avoid jail, which he did.

 

The secondary difference is that Ali wasn't being forced to kill or shoot at anyone, he could be a CO but still serve, he refused to comply with that, much like Kim Davis' stand.

 

Her 5 days is more respectful than his intentional refusal to support this country. In light of the numbers of poor and disadvantaged soldiers that essentially had no choice or means, his "civil disobedience" is much more of an issue for me.

This is just wrong.

She did 5 days, he let his lawyers keep him out of jail forever. I firmly believe he wasn't prosecuted after the fact, like many were, because of his fame and status...show me a poor black man with limited education and no legs from his tour that agrees with Ali's stance and maybe I consider changing my mind.

There is a big gap in logic here. They both appealed with the intent NOT to go to jail. There is no difference there. The difference is Ali's lawyers did a better job than Kim's.