I read an article on Ali yesterday and it made me remember your post. Others on here have expressed similar feelings.

 

I have to ask, though, how him taking his stance for religious beliefs is any different than Kim Davis taking her stance. You seem to be fully supportive of her right to take the stance since it was on her firm religious beliefs.

 

I am curious as to how you see the two situations differing.

 

He avoided going to war, that makes him a coward. In light of how many young African American men did have to go to war, likely because of their place in life, I am perplexed at how anyone could consider him a hero of any sorts.

 

Kim Davis took a stand after the conditions of her employment changed and a group of people rendered a decision....

 

Ali was / is a coward...she had the guts to stand up and take her hit.

Given where the bulk of the anti-Ali vitriol has come from over the decades, I'm betting there's a lot of folks struggling with that same conundrum (or maybe not). A lot of today's religious liberty advocates only care to advocate for Christianity.

 

The problem with Ali is that he could be CO and still serve in the military, but didn't. It's not so much about Ali's alleged religious stance, it's that he still didn't do the right thing.

 

As an aside, Bernie Sanders applied for CO status during Vietnam...

He avoided going to war' date=' that makes him a coward. In light of how many young African American men did have to go to war, likely because of their place in life, I am perplexed at how anyone could consider him a hero of any sorts. Kim Davis took a stand after the conditions of her employment changed and a group of people rendered a decision.... Ali was / is a coward...she had the guts to stand up and take her hit.[/quote']

 

What is it about war that invalidates his religious beliefs?

A little more Ali history:

 

On April 28, 1967, with the United States at war in Vietnam, Ali refused to be inducted into the armed forces, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.” On June 20, 1967, Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison, fined $10,000 and banned from boxing for three years. He stayed out of prison as his case was appealed and returned to the ring on October 26, 1970, knocking out Jerry Quarry in Atlanta in the third round.

 

So Ali takes a stand, appeals the sentance, does no time and still earns millions...Kim Davis takes a stand, does 5 days in county....who bore the greater punishment for their beliefs ?

A little more Ali history: On April 28' date=' 1967, with the United States at war in Vietnam, Ali refused to be inducted into the armed forces, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.” On June 20, 1967, Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison, fined $10,000 and banned from boxing for three years. He stayed out of prison as his case was appealed and returned to the ring on October 26, 1970, knocking out Jerry Quarry in Atlanta in the third round. So Ali takes a stand, appeals the sentance, does no time and still earns millions...Kim Davis takes a stand, does 5 days in county....who bore the greater punishment for their beliefs ?[/quote']

 

Does it matter? I still do not see a difference. Both took unpopular stands based on their religious beliefs.

What is it about war that invalidates his religious beliefs?

 

Nothing about the war invalidated his beliefs, he refused service. CO's are not exempt from service, they are exempt from carrying arms typically. They still can serve, he refused to serve at all, was sentenced, appealed and never had to do a day of time, yet was still able to earn a very nice living doing the same thing he was doing before the war.

 

I will go as far to question whether or not his conversion was well timed based on the conditions of the day...and I don't take questioning someone's religion lightly....him, I do.

Does it matter? I still do not see a difference. Both took unpopular stands based on their religious beliefs.

 

It matters when those without the ability and status that he had died while believing the same thing he did...I suspect that very few Americans had any “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

Nothing about the war invalidated his beliefs, he refused service. CO's are not exempt from service, they are exempt from carrying arms typically. They still can serve, he refused to serve at all, was sentenced, appealed and never had to do a day of time, yet was still able to earn a very nice living doing the same thing he was doing before the war.

 

I will go as far to question whether or not his conversion was well timed based on the conditions of the day...and I don't take questioning someone's religion lightly....him, I do.

 

Except for those three and a half years.

Except for those three and a half years.

 

Right, that obviously affected his status and livelihood for the duration of his life, correct ?

 

I won't bend on this one...dude is not a national or state hero. He gets no respect from me (not that it matters to him or anyone else).

 

The irony is that he was an icon for the black struggle during a time when young men that were very similar to him likely needed someone to look up to. IMO he failed to provide adequate role modeling and likely a fair amount of disdain for those that were trying to stay alive day to day.

 

It's correct he didn't get to earn a living during those three and half years, but he didn't have anyone trying to kill him either....

It matters when those without the ability and status that he had died while believing the same thing he did...I suspect that very few Americans had any “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

 

Would it be unfair to say that the religious belief itself and not the practicing of one's religious beliefs is your main issue? The "what" matters.

Would it be unfair to say that the religious belief itself and not the practicing of one's religious beliefs is your main issue? The "what" matters.

 

Maybe, I have to map that one out to be able to accurately answer what I think your question is. I don't care that he chose to be whatever religion he is, I question if the practice of the religion (in Ali's case) was a valid reason to avoid compulsory service in the military.

 

To be clear, I never said I agreed with Kim Davis' position one way or another, but I supported the fact that she took a stand and took her punishment because of that stand....Ali appealed and never did jail time, even though he verbalized that his convictions were based on his religious beliefs. If Ali was a stand up guy, who truly believed he shouldn't be in Vietnam, then he should have done his time...maybe then I would have a little more respect for his position

Maybe, I have to map that one out to be able to accurately answer what I think your question is. I don't care that he chose to be whatever religion he is, I question if the practice of the religion (in Ali's case) was a valid reason to avoid compulsory service in the military.

 

To be clear, I never said I agreed with Kim Davis' position one way or another, but I supported the fact that she took a stand and took her punishment because of that stand....Ali appealed and never did jail time, even though he verbalized that his convictions were based on his religious beliefs. If Ali was a stand up guy, who truly believed he shouldn't be in Vietnam, then he should have done his time...maybe then I would have a little more respect for his position

 

I'm on board with understanding that you supported her right and not necessarily her stance. That's the whole purpose of my questioning. We can disagree with the stance based on a religion but can we support one person and not the other because of the particular stance?

 

We all have hot buttons that can lead to inconsistencies. Is this one for you?

Maybe, I have to map that one out to be able to accurately answer what I think your question is. I don't care that he chose to be whatever religion he is, I question if the practice of the religion (in Ali's case) was a valid reason to avoid compulsory service in the military.

 

To be clear, I never said I agreed with Kim Davis' position one way or another, but I supported the fact that she took a stand and took her punishment because of that stand....Ali appealed and never did jail time, even though he verbalized that his convictions were based on his religious beliefs. If Ali was a stand up guy, who truly believed he shouldn't be in Vietnam, then he should have done his time...maybe then I would have a little more respect for his position

Kim Davis appealed to everyone under the sun. She just didn't win. How is that different than what Ali did?

A little more Ali history:

 

On April 28, 1967, with the United States at war in Vietnam, Ali refused to be inducted into the armed forces, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.” On June 20, 1967, Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison, fined $10,000 and banned from boxing for three years. He stayed out of prison as his case was appealed and returned to the ring on October 26, 1970, knocking out Jerry Quarry in Atlanta in the third round.

 

So Ali takes a stand, appeals the sentance, does no time and still earns millions...Kim Davis takes a stand, does 5 days in county....who bore the greater punishment for their beliefs ?

 

To be fair, Ali was stripped of earning power for those three years. He had to resort to borrowing money from friends and rivals to stay afloat during that time. Joe Frazier even helped him out.

Nothing about the war invalidated his beliefs, he refused service. CO's are not exempt from service, they are exempt from carrying arms typically. They still can serve, he refused to serve at all, was sentenced, appealed and never had to do a day of time, yet was still able to earn a very nice living doing the same thing he was doing before the war.

 

I will go as far to question whether or not his conversion was well timed based on the conditions of the day...and I don't take questioning someone's religion lightly....him, I do.

 

He's remained devout his entire life since taking up the Islamic faith. How is that not genuine to you? I take his a hell of a lot more seriously than Davis, who "found Jesus" and repented from her past ways of adultery. Seems to me like her conversion is more of a marriage of convenience than Ali's.