Jesus Would Approve of Same-Sex Marriage

[Hatz]

BTW, one of the writers in the above book was Dr George D Armstrong of the Presbyterian church in Norfolk.

 

He wrote that "Paul sent back a fugitive slave because of his Master's Rights to his service."

 

The title of his work was "The Christian Doctrine of Slavery."

 

https://archive.org/details/christiandoctorine00armsrich

[kypride]

Do you even care that nobody was property in the bible and people weren't born into slavery? Does it matter to you that your'e talking about a different kind of slavery?

[InItToWinIt]

I haven't looked at all. But I have probably heard 30,000 sermons in my life and have never heard one that taught that Owning a Slave was a Christian Duty.

 

I actually preached about the Sabbath Day a few days ago, it will be posted soon.

 

The book you posted seems to be a collection of case studies, not sermons that you would hear in a church. But I have not read the book or know anything about it.

 

I'm not saying you are lying, but if you are 60 years old and listened to one sermon every day since the day you were born, you would have heard 21,900 sermons. That's impressive if you've actually heard 30,000!

[PP1]

I'm not saying you are lying, but if you are 60 years old and listened to one sermon every day since the day you were born, you would have heard 21,900 sermons. That's impressive if you've actually heard 30,000!

 

Extra zero. Thanks 3,000. I am 34 and listen or give about 100 a year.

[PP1]

Then you haven't looked very hard. Let me recommend "Slaves, Sabbath, War and Women." It presents writings and sermons for each position.

 

Slavery, Sabbath, War and Women: Case Issues in Biblical Interpretation by Willard M. Swartley ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

 

I have only briefly skimmed some information on the book. From the little I saw it seems to focus on defending slavery, not that as Christian's it is our duty to own a slave. My response that you quoted was in reference to someone saying the Bible says we as Christians have a duty to own slaves.

[MayfieldFan]

Do you even care that nobody was property in the bible and people weren't born into slavery? Does it matter to you that your'e talking about a different kind of slavery?

 

I don't get this type of response. We are to believe in the words of the Bible, and structure our lives around them. But as soon as something uncomfortable is pointed out, for example, the Bible's endorsement of slavery, ....out come the "explanations" that explain nothing, and serve only to make my original point. People make the Bible, and Jesus, say what they want it to say.

You don't like slavery...good. The book you like does like slavery.....bad. So you simply say something like "it was a different kind of slavery." But you can only say that if you basically ignore the Bible. I mean, it's the equivalent of holding your hands over your eyes and saying "I am blind." The slavery in the Bible, endorsed by the Bible, was exactly the same kind of slavery that we had. They were property. The Bible says they could be given to your children in your will. That's property. Through the ages, millions of Christians believed in slavery and believed they had support in the Bible. Now, Christians believe neither.

Which is my point all along. It doesn't matter what the Bible says. Not really. When well-meaning Christians can look at the Bible and say "it was a different type of slavery," then the words of the page mean nothing. People don't structure their lives and beliefs around God's word, they structure God's word around their lives and beliefs. So....in fifty years, Jesus will be in favor of same sex marriage cause that is the trend.

[kypride]

Historical evidence disagrees with you. Don't let facts get in the way though.

[Hatz]

I have only briefly skimmed some information on the book. From the little I saw it seems to focus on defending slavery, not that as Christian's it is our duty to own a slave. My response that you quoted was in reference to someone saying the Bible says we as Christians have a duty to own slaves.

 

The actual book I quoted from in post #46 is from a Presbyterian minister whose premise was just that: The Christian Doctrine of owning slaves. The whole book is on the link I listed.

[PP1]

the Bible's endorsement of slavery, People make the Bible, and Jesus, say what they want it to say.

You don't like slavery...good. The book you like does like slavery

 

Where? I have read the entire thing, but I don't think it says anywhere in the Bible that slavery is good or that God likes it. It does say that in the eyes of God that there is no difference between a slave or free man. Paul did ask Philemon to look at Onesimus, not as a slave, but as a brother in Christ. It does also advise slaves to be good to their masters and for masters to treat their slaves the same.

 

Please tell me where you think the Bible says that slavery is good. Because I do not think it says that.

[MayfieldFan]

Where? I have read the entire thing, but I don't think it says anywhere in the Bible that slavery is good or that God likes it. It does say that in the eyes of God that there is no difference between a slave or free man. Paul did ask Philemon to look at Onesimus, not as a slave, but as a brother in Christ. It does also advise slaves to be good to their masters and for masters to treat their slaves the same.

 

Please tell me where you think the Bible says that slavery is good. Because I do not think it says that.

 

Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV /

 

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly

 

That's a biblical endorsement of the practice of slavery.

 

Ephesians 6:5 ESV /

 

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

 

Bible: Slaves, do what Master says....

 

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV /

 

“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

 

You can beat your slaves to death, just so long as they can suffer for a day before dying. Also, you can beat them, but not kill them. (implied)

 

The following verse is nice. Slaves go free after six years, unless the Master gave him a wife and they had children. In which case, he gets to decide between going free and leaving his wife and children as slaves, or staying with them and remaining a slave.

 

Edit: apparently i didn't paste this one. Not going back to find it.

 

No punishment for sleeping with a slave...cause she isn't free.

Leviticus 19:20 ESV / 32 helpful votes

 

“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;

 

New Testament

Luke 12:47 ESV /

 

And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

 

Joshua 17:13 ESV /

 

Now when the people of Israel grew strong, they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but did not utterly drive them out.

 

How to sell your daughter into slavery

Exodus 21:7-11 ESV /

 

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

 

 

 

idk, sounds like the Bible is pro-slavery. And, if it wasn't, I would expect to see a verse that says "It is wrong to own another person" Would have saved a lot of trouble for this nation.

You can disagree, but you aren't really disagreeing with me in 2015. You are disagreeing with all the Christians pre-civil war. How did all those devout sincere Christians get it so wrong? Willing to go to war over it? You can chalk me up as an idiot, but how do you explain so many people, desirous of following God's will, who got it so very wrong? I think it has something to do with those verses up there, and the absence of clear contrary direction. Thou shall have no other God before me. That's clear. Where is the Thou shalt not own another person?

[PP1]

I'm not saying that slavery did not exist. It definitely did. There were Christians who were slaves and masters. So God instituted rules about it. In the NT, slavery was still a legal institution and the Bible discusses how to be a good Christian slave or a good Christian slave master.

 

But nowhere does it say that Slavery is good. That is what you previously stated, that the bible likes slavery.

 

Kind of like the whole polygamy thing. The heroes of the OT all had multiple wives. God did not condemn then but never once did he say he like it. He had a greater providence. When the NT rolled around, then he established what his plan for marriage always was.

 

Good list of verses though. I could try to pick them apart but it would be a really long post. In a nutshell, if you continue to read the verses the precede and procede the ones you listed, you may find that the point is almost protection. Leviticus 25 is about the Year of Jubilee, Ephesians 6:5-9 gives instructions for masters (you only listed verse 5), Luke 12 is a parable Jesus tells about Christians relationship with God (not actual slaves).

[kypride]

Not my words but I agree with the text-

“For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”

—Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)

 

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

 

“Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,”

—1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

 

These three references indicate that homosexual passions and acts are unnatural, shameful, contrary to sound doctrine and deny entrance to the Kingdom of God. This being so they cannot be the basis of a Christian marriage sanctioned by God’s Church. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. No marriage can be sanctioned by the Church if the very basis of the marriage involves acts that put the couple outside of eternal salvation. No matter what our society may legislate, the law of God is clear—that a marriage is not a godly marriage if it is a same sex union.

[MayfieldFan]

I'm not saying that slavery did not exist. It definitely did. There were Christians who were slaves and masters. So God instituted rules about it. In the NT, slavery was still a legal institution and the Bible discusses how to be a good Christian slave or a good Christian slave master.

 

But nowhere does it say that Slavery is good. That is what you previously stated, that the bible likes slavery.

 

Kind of like the whole polygamy thing. The heroes of the OT all had multiple wives. God did not condemn then but never once did he say he like it. He had a greater providence. When the NT rolled around, then he established what his plan for marriage always was.

 

Good list of verses though. I could try to pick them apart but it would be a really long post. In a nutshell, if you continue to read the verses the precede and procede the ones you listed, you may find that the point is almost protection. Leviticus 25 is about the Year of Jubilee, Ephesians 6:5-9 gives instructions for masters (you only listed verse 5), Luke 12 is a parable Jesus tells about Christians relationship with God (not actual slaves).

 

Well, I think you are proving my point for me. That people make God/Jesus/Bible what they want, and not the other way around. You don't approve of slavery, so you go to great lengths to ignore the obvious meaning of those verses. Your take from those verses is that "slavery existed."

Look at it this way. Slavery is evil and immoral. Owning people, beating them, raping them, tearing apart families, ....that's pure evil. So starting with that, what does the bible say about this evil?

Does it condemn slavery? No, it...as you very very charitably put it "slavery existed so God instituted rules about it." Now I respect your right to believe as you wish, but for me, I would want a God worthy of worship and devotion to take a itsy bitsy stronger stand against an evil practice like slavery. The Bible denounces shellfish and multi-colored clothes, I would expect it to condemn slavery too, not make up rules to govern the practice.

As to the point that this doesn't mean the Bible thinks slavery is good or endorses it, well, of course it does. That's exactly what it means. Do you mean to imply in your answer that God didn't like slavery, but hey, it existed, so he made up rules about it? If so, God perpetuated the evil practice by failing to condemn it, and enabled those who profited from it to keep it going by endorsing the practice through "instituting" rules. Or do you mean to imply that God likes slavery, but only when it comports with the biblical "slavery rules.".

The bottom line is that if a person wants to know if slavery is evil or not, the Bible would be an exceedingly bad book to consult.

And so modern Christians, rightfully opposed to slavery, simply come up with ridiculous interpretations of these verses, or ignore them all together, in order to square up the Bible and their belief system.

The same will be true with same sex marriages in 50 years. The verses cities in opposition to it will share the same fate as the pro-slavery verses.

I personally think this is a strength of Christianity (as opposed to say Islam, which does not seem to have this strength), the ability to change, albeit slowly, and prove itself relevant to successive generations. There is a lot of good that results from religion, and so, that's cool.

[Bipsic]

I'm not necessarily saying that any given church should embrace same-sex marriage, but I truly believe in my heart that if Jesus was walking around today rather than 2000 years ago, he would continue to preach against the greedy, and to love one's neighbor and his Father. This may be heresy, but I honestly feel that in regards to same-sex relationships, he would continue to admonish promiscuity and adultery, but welcome those relationships that grew from a foundation of love.

 

While sex occurred, I might be wrong, but I don't think monogamous, public relationships existed in NT time. From my understanding, homosexual sex acts occurred either secretly, against one party's will, or as an act of dominance or general licentiousness. It is easy to see how one would oppose any of the above, but I struggle coming up with any way that a loving God would command a significant portion of his children to refuse searching for a committed relationship with another because they happen to only be attracted to individuals of the same sex.

[PP1]

The bottom line is that if a person wants to know if slavery is evil or not, the Bible would be an exceedingly bad book to consult.

And so modern Christians, rightfully opposed to slavery, simply come up with ridiculous interpretations of these verses, or ignore them all together, in order to square up the Bible and their belief system.

 

I think it is just as ridiculous to use a parable that Jesus told in Luke chapter 12 that is about our relationship with God in this way. You mentioned Ephesians chapter 6 verse 5, but if you finish reading the paragraph and the next one to verse 9 you see that Paul is very specific about how slaves are to be treated. You mentioned Leviticus 25 which is talking about the Year of Jubilee which occurs I think every 51st year.

 

You need to read these scriptures in their entirety. It makes me wonder if you are actually looking these verses up and reading them or just googling "Biblical endorsements of Slavery" and then copying and pasting.

 

The Bible is very strict with Slave Owners on how they are supposed to behave. They are to honor God in the way they treat their slaves. By feeding, housing, and treating them with a Godlike love.

 

This is not me making up or looking up bible verses. The Bible has always had these positions. I do agree that some people misinterpret things, but the actual message has and will never change.

 

Also, Widows and Orphans are the most vulnerable people in the scriptures. For them, being a slave was a way of survival.

 

There were times when God allowed his own people to become enslaved as punishment for their disobedience (Babylonians and Medes/Persian Empires).

 

When the Egyptians were being very sick and violent slave owners, God sent Moses to free them.

 

Not sure where I was going with those last two little stories, but they seemed to fit.