Per McKee, Scott County is the Dallas Cowboys of Kentucky

[Hellbird]

Of course smaller schools can beat slightly bigger schools on a regular basis. But show me one of those schools from smaller class that can constantly beat Trinity or Male or St X etc. one of the largest schools in the state. It doesn't happen.

 

Now ow how many of those 4 years that BG (Who was the exception not the rule during those 4 years as you know) beat St X did St X win state? Again we are talking about being able to beat the best in the state in a regular basis.

 

There is a huge difference in a 2A school losing to a Beechwood etc. or a Boone Co Rebels losing to a Highlands. But that isn't the same thing we are talking about. We are talking about the difference in a 500 male student enrollment 6A team and a 1300 male student male enrollment team. Not even close.

 

so now that I have refuted your point, what's the next thing you want refuted?

[Jim Schue]

2000 yards for a guy in a team that only won a couple games is the point! He had no line and no supporting cast. Cooper was a brand new school, don't you get that? When Cooper opened, any jr or senior that was to transfer to Cooper was allowed to stay at their current school to graduate which meant cooper had freshman etc playing Varsity to fill out the roster and freshman starting! That makes it more impressive than anyone from any other school in the state. You just don't get it.

 

Unless you're Collins. They won state in the fourth year they were open. And beat Highlands to do it. You guys just got around to scheduling Highlands this year. My guess is Collins isn't impressed.

[psychicscubadiver]

Of course smaller schools can beat slightly bigger schools on a regular basis. But show me one of those schools from smaller class that can constantly beat Trinity or Male or St X etc. one of the largest schools in the state. It doesn't happen.

 

Now ow how many of those 4 years that BG (Who was the exception not the rule during those 4 years as you know) beat St X did St X win state? Again we are talking about being able to beat the best in the state in a regular basis.

 

There is a huge difference in a 2A school losing to a Beechwood etc. or a Boone Co Rebels losing to a Highlands. But that isn't the same thing we are talking about. We are talking about the difference in a 500 male student enrollment 6A team and a 1300 male student male enrollment team. Not even close.

 

so now that I have refuted your point, what's the next thing you want refuted?

 

Slightly smaller beating slightly bigger? I quoted schools who were half the enrollment or less. Specifically, I mentioned Mayfield (1A 199 males) beating Graves County (5A 694), DeSales (2A 291 males) beating Southern (6A 712) and Bowling Green (5A 552 males) beating St. X (6A 1453). I never mentioned a 1A school beating a 2A school and in fact my prime example is of a school (Bowling Green) winning against a school despite a greater difference in enrollment than your 500-1300 example.

 

Also can something happen four years in a row and be dismissed as an exception every time? St. X was hardly a pushover any of those years either, consistently ranking from 2-4 in their class and within the top five teams in state. Surprisingly enough I consider a top five team one of the best in the state. Heck, in 2013 Bowling Green was considered the best team in state, once again despite having half the enrollment of Trinity, St. X, Scott County etc.

 

You are also incorrect about the differences in the 6A class enrollment. The smallest school in 6A (2015-2018) is Cooper at 576. However they and Connor both petitioned to move up. The smallest enrollment by the natural boundaries of the class is Boone County at 726.

 

And if you refuted my point, where did you address Paul Dunbar and Male?

 

Using inaccurate portrayals of my examples on one point and ignoring the another two points is hardly a refutation.

 

EDIT: And I just now noticed you listed Male among the largest schools. That is also incorrect. Male was 17th (2011-2014) and will be 22th (2015-2018) in the State in male enrollment. And yet, they are one of the top three schools.

Edited August 13, 2015 by psychicscubadiver

[Hellbird]

Unless you're Collins. They won state in the fourth year they were open. And beat Highlands to do it. You guys just got around to scheduling Highlands this year. My guess is Collins isn't impressed.

First off, what does that have to do with this conversation. Secondly, when Collins won (Which i thought was the best game I've seen in state finals history, as I even made that known in a thread on here) weren't they in class 4A? Of course they played Highlands...they played them in the title game!!!!! Highlands played in the same class as Collins and only played them because Collins made it to the championship game. Collins didn't "Schedule" Highlands on their own that year did they? At least cooper is scheduling them and they aren't even in Coopers class.

 

Did Collins play Bowling Green that year? No, Cooper isn't impressed....you see it's the same thing. Not only does it have nothing to do with anything, but it is just silly to act as if it does.

 

But again, what does Collins winning the title in 2013 have to do with a RB finishing 3rd in the state in the 2nd year of a schools existence?

[Hellbird]

Slightly smaller beating slightly bigger? I quoted schools who were half the enrollment or less. Specifically, I mentioned Mayfield (1A 199 males) beating Graves County (5A 694), DeSales (2A 291 males) beating Southern (6A 712) and Bowling Green (5A 552 males) beating St. X (6A 1453). I never mentioned a 1A school beating a 2A school and in fact my prime example is of a school (Bowling Green) winning against a school despite a greater difference in enrollment than your 500-1300 example.

 

Also can something happen four years in a row and be dismissed as an exception every time? St. X was hardly a pushover any of those years either, consistently ranking from 2-4 in their class and within the top teams in state. Surprisingly enough a top five team in state one of the best in the state. Heck, in 2013 Bowling Green was considered the best team in state, once again despite having half the enrollment of Trinity, St. X, Scott County etc.

 

You are also incorrect about the differences in the 6A class enrollment. The smallest school in 6A (2015-2018) is Cooper at 576. However they and Connor both petitioned to move up. The smallest enrollment by the natural boundaries of the class is Boone County at 726.

 

And if you refuted my point, where did you address Paul Dunbar and Male?

 

Using inaccurate portrayals of my examples on one point and ignoring the another two points is hardly a refutation.

 

EDIT: And I just now noticed you listed Male among the largest schools. That is also incorrect. Male was 17th (2011-2014) and will be 22th (2015-2018) in the State in male enrollment. And yet, they are one of the top three schools.

When I said BG is the exception, it wasn't about beating St X 4 years in a row, I meant that BG is an exceptional Football Team who was in the midst of an unbelievable winning streak athat almost ended with a new state record. Are you saying BG is the norm? That would be like saying Highlands is the norm for their size of school. Highlands just like BG are the exceptions and are outstanding programs period where size of enrollment have little affect on the quality of football those schools produce.

 

As far as schools, I said the Louisville schools have the most male enrollments, not that Male High School had the largest.

 

When did Dunbar and Male win state titles in the last 10 years? I thought we were talking about ability to win State Titles? But again, what does Dunbar and Male have to do with this conversation again?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Hellbird

[psychicscubadiver]

When I said BG is the exception, it wasn't about beating St X 4 years in a row, I meant that BG is an exceptional Football Team who was in the midst of an unbelievable winning streak athat almost ended with a new state record. Are you saying BG is the norm? That would be like saying Highlands is the norm for their size of school. Highlands just like BG are the exceptions and are outstanding programs period where size of enrollment have little affect on the quality of football those schools produce.

 

Ah, but your argument predicates on Trinity, St. X, Male et al, vs a school with much higher enrollment (The theoretical 2900 Boone County). Would you call any of them 'the norm'?

[Hellbird]

Ah, but your argument predicates on Trinity, St. X, Male et al, vs a school with much higher enrollment (The theoretical 2900 Boone County). Would you call any of them 'the norm'?

Again you are missing the entire point being made.

 

Trinity and St X, and I will even toss in Scott Co. for this question so maybe you will then understand. Do those schools have higher male enrollment than any Boone county public school? Not by just a little, but a significant amount. Do they? Who else have been the most successful teams in 6A over the past decade?

Here are the enrollment numbers for 13-14 for the 3 schools compared to all of Boone County public High Schools and you try and convince me that numbers don't make a difference, not just a little difference but a huge difference. Try and convince me that Trinity is just as good as they are even if they only had an enrollment size of 300.

 

Trinity 2538

St X 2694

Scott Co. 1243

 

Now for Boone

Boone Co 697

Conner 687

Cooper 615

Ryle 885

 

Trinity Male Enrollment alone is more than 4 times the number of Cooper's male enrollment. Trinity is almost 3 times as many as the largest school in Boone County, Ryle.

Yet you don't think enrollment size when it's that big of a difference has much to do with how good a program is? Really?

[Hellbird]

Ah, but your argument predicates on Trinity, St. X, Male et al, vs a school with much higher enrollment (The theoretical 2900 Boone County). Would you call any of them 'the norm'?

No, you miss the entire point again. My point is that if Boone Co. would merge all 4 schools and have only 1 public high school LIKE SCOTT CO HAS then they would be able to compete a lot better with the big schools in Louisville period. That having 2900 students to choose from for their football team would be more in line like St. X or Trinity etc. has which would make them more competitive in 6A than they are now when they only have 600 students to choose from. That has always been the entire point. When you asked about what years etc. would they be able to compete, I gave you several but again we would never know because it is entirely hypothetical because we could never see that one team and how they would play etc. But you kept asking and wanting players as an example and I gave you several players, one of which was one of the best RB's in the state and all you did was poo poo his abilities as if it was easy for him to get the yards he got because of the schedule they plaayed? Yet you never once took into account his surrounding cast. So that is why I said having this conversation with you was pointless at times because you picked and chose what points you wanted to use and discarded the rest.

[psychicscubadiver]

Again you are missing the entire point being made.

 

Trinity and St X, and I will even toss in Scott Co. for this question so maybe you will then understand. Do those schools have higher male enrollment than any Boone county public school? Not by just a little, but a significant amount. Do they? Who else have been the most successful teams in 6A over the past decade?

Here are the enrollment numbers for 13-14 for the 3 schools compared to all of Boone County public High Schools and you try and convince me that numbers don't make a difference, not just a little difference but a huge difference. Try and convince me that Trinity is just as good as they are even if they only had an enrollment size of 300.

 

Trinity 2538

St X 2694

Scott Co. 1243

 

Now for Boone

Boone Co 697

Conner 687

Cooper 615

Ryle 885

 

Trinity Male Enrollment alone is more than 4 times the number of Cooper's male enrollment. Trinity is almost 3 times as many as the largest school in Boone County, Ryle.

Yet you don't think enrollment size when it's that big of a difference has much to do with how good a program is? Really?

 

Where are you getting your numbers?

 

The following is data from the KHSAA realignment form. http://khsaa.org/football/realignment/20152018/FourYearEnrollmentsbyDraftClass.pdf

 

Trinity: 1295

St. X: 1377

Scott County: 1217

 

Boone Co: 726

Conner: 650

Cooper: 576

Ryle: 858

 

Male has a place in this conversation because despite being oneof the lower enrollments in the class (below Ryle for example) they are an actual threat to the title almost every year. In 2013 they beat Trinity, in 2014 they went 1-1 only losing in OT in the playoffs. In 2015 they are first in the BGP preseason list. Even without titles who could claim they are not a legitmate threat?

 

Paul Dunbar is part of this conversation because of the claim that higher enrollment means better football. Paul Dunbar is one of the highest in the state yet they have not threatened for a title for years and years, if ever.

 

Only time I think about them is when I wish Boone County schools had what they had....1 public school for the county. then you'd see NKY bringing back some 6A titles

 

The statement that literally started it all. How is interpreting that as 'this theoretical team could beat Trinity, St. X, Male, etc' missing the point? Do you think they wouldn't have to play any of them to 'bring back some 6A titles'?

 

You gave me years that you thought this hypothetical team could compete, I looked over what they had and disagreed (because it would mean playing a nationally ranked Trinity team every one of those years). Disagreeing with your opinion is not 'picking and choosing'.

[Content1]

:popcorn:

 

Be good and great in this thread fellas! :bunny:

[Hellbird]

Where are you getting your numbers?

 

The following is data from the KHSAA realignment form. http://khsaa.org/football/realignment/20152018/FourYearEnrollmentsbyDraftClass.pdf

 

Trinity: 1295

St. X: 1377

Scott County: 1217

 

Boone Co: 726

Conner: 650

Cooper: 576

Ryle: 858

 

Male has a place in this conversation because despite being oneof the lower enrollments in the class (below Ryle for example) they are an actual threat to the title almost every year. In 2013 they beat Trinity, in 2014 they went 1-1 only losing in OT in the playoffs. In 2015 they are first in the BGP preseason list. Even without titles who could claim they are not a legitmate threat?

 

Paul Dunbar is part of this conversation because of the claim that higher enrollment means better football. Paul Dunbar is one of the highest in the state yet they have not threatened for a title for years and years, if ever.

 

 

 

The statement that literally started it all. How is interpreting that as 'this theoretical team could beat Trinity, St. X, Male, etc' missing the point? Do you think they wouldn't have to play any of them to 'bring back some 6A titles'?

 

You gave me years that you thought this hypothetical team could compete, I looked over what they had and disagreed (because it would mean playing a nationally ranked Trinity team every one of those years). Disagreeing with your opinion is not 'picking and choosing'.

 

 

Here is where I got my numbers

http://khsaa.org/reports/enrollments/20132014schoolenrollmenttotalsbyalpha.pdf

 

If they are wrong on there, then I'm sorry...I just got them from what was released. I very well could have read it wrong, I went to one of the last columns where it said c_boys where I thought that was the enrollment size.

even if I read it wrong T etc. and St X etc. still has about double and some cases more than double the number.

[All Tell]

Maybe, just maybe if the coaches in NKY 6A would coach like it's 2015 rather then 1985 they would be more competitive.

 

EVERY 6A team from NKY I've seen has been EXTREMELY 1 dimensional. Take that 1 dimension away from them and they are hosed. Now I'll grant you that's a limited number but other then Simon Kenton a few years ago they were mostly a few weeks into the playoffs or later, so you would assume they were the better 6A teams from NKY. In all but 1 of those games the NKY team wasn't just beaten, they were hammered.

 

Even back when Boone County had Alexander a coach that thought out of the box a little bit was able to beat them and keep them from winning a title.

[Hellbird]

Maybe, just maybe if the coaches in NKY 6A would coach like it's 2015 rather then 1985 they would be more competitive.

 

EVERY 6A team from NKY I've seen has been EXTREMELY 1 dimensional. Take that 1 dimension away from them and they are hosed. Now I'll grant you that's a limited number but other then Simon Kenton a few years ago they were mostly a few weeks into the playoffs or later, so you would assume they were the better 6A teams from NKY. In all but 1 of those games the NKY team wasn't just beaten, they were hammered.

 

Even back when Boone County had Alexander a coach that thought out of the box a little bit was able to beat them and keep them from winning a title.

I would tend to agree with you. Hopefully now you will see a change. Cooper has now moved up to 6A and in the past has been pretty balanced offensively but they also play according to what they have.

2012 they avg'd over 120 yards passing a game and 200 yards rushing a game. 2013 they knew they had a better pasing game so they avg'd over 200 yards passing and only 85 yards rushing a game. 2014 they were more balanced as they had a better running game and avg'd over 100 yards passing and 179 yards rushing a game.

 

One thing you will find with Coach Borchers, he will never ever be one to stick with a scheme based on historical results like Boone county has been known to do etc. He will always go to what works best for the team and adapt on the fly. I think you will see the same this year. They have a great running game this year but also some great receivers, the question mark is a new QB taking snaps this year. If the QB can get the job done then you will see a balanced offense, if he can't then youwill see an offense that will lean toward the run game if that is their strong suit.

[Old-School-Football]

Hellbird, may I please ask...

 

Are you pretty much saying Boone should do the same thing as McCracken County - and if it was possible, Northern KY football may be a different story? I think I'm following the discussion. How do the McCracken numbers stack up now from the enrollment perspective? And please remember, they lost to the #4 team in the super district last year.

 

Very much enjoying the discussion. Just trying to get a firm grasp and look for a sample or something to validate the argument. Would McCracken be a good example? Not looking for a hypothetical example...just wondering if McCracken is a good place to start.

 

Thanks!

[Hellbird]

Hellbird, may I please ask...

 

Are you pretty much saying Boone should do the same thing as McCracken County - and if it was possible, Northern KY football may be a different story? I think I'm following the discussion. How do the McCracken numbers stack up now from the enrollment perspective? And please remember, they lost to the #4 team in the super district last year.

 

Very much enjoying the discussion. Just trying to get a firm grasp and look for a sample or something to validate the argument. Would McCracken be a good example? Not looking for a hypothetical example...just wondering if McCracken is a good place to start.

 

Thanks!

I am not familiar enough with McCraken's situation to comment on if it would be the same or not.

 

This conversation started simply because of SC's coach comments on how he thiks his team is thought of by others. I simply said

Only time I think about them is when I wish Boone County schools had what they had....1 public school for the county. then you'd see NKY bringing back some 6A titles

 

For instance, in Boone County's case, the talent level is so diluted among the 4 public high schools which is the reason you will never see a dominate 6A school from NKY area. Especially in boone County where they have closed enrollment, you will only see a school be succesful in 6A once in a blue moon. It would be differnt if they were all combined because you would have all the best players in the area on one team instead of divided among 4 teams. So that is why Scott Co. can get away with saying what he says, when you are the only store in town you will get the most shoppers.

 

That is all I've meant this entire time. The point went off the rails when psychic started wanting to know what year Boone would be able to compete with Louisville schools, so I gave him some years and he basically said I was wrong. So that is that.

 

LEt's see if I can give another example of a school that was built recently that had early success ( I believe in only their 2nd year) because when they were built, unlike Cooper which was built as an additional school to the already existing schools in the area, this other school was built to combine the existing schools in the area into 1 school. Harlan Co. I believe it was only their 2nd year that they were playing in the state semi final game in 5A. that was because they merged the 3 existing public schools in the area into that 1 which gave them talent from multiple schools and now had them all on one team which makes a big difference and doesn't dilute the product.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Hellbird