Don't think I said that, my point was some MS coaches don't worry about developing the kids and only coach them thinking short term... What's best for me the coach not the kid

Gotcha

By short term do you mean only worrying about winning? I think if a coach is worried about winning, the coach would be teaching the fundamentals and working on them getting better because that is what leads to wins. Granted there are those that do not know how to teach the fundamentals. Also, there are others that lack the ability to organize things to maximize time to teach effectively(this is not just a MS coach issue).

What is the goal or role of the MS coach, in your opinion?

The main goal of a middle school coach should be to get the kids better for high school football.

I think freshman football is the point the HS HC gets eyes on kids. It seems every year a few of the better freshman would dress varsity after the FReshman season. I think this is done to keep those players involed in the program.

I do think. If it's youth leauge or MS football. A kid needs to play to get better. I think the goal should be for all kids to get playing time until HS. You just never know who may end up being really good in HS. If a kid never sees the feild at an early age. He may not want to play in HS.

I agree with you. To many weird rules in middle school football compared to youth football.

I'm not sure what your experience is with MS football but a majority of the state plays with FED rules with the only change being they overlook the numbering exemptions. Youth leagues do the weird stuff with 2pts for a PAT and ball carrier weight limits among a number of other strange ones.

 

As far as following what the HS does well it's not exactly that simple. I've coached MS ball at the same place for 12 seasons. The HS has had four different HCs during that time frame. At one point having three different HCs in three years. The offense and defense has changed even more than that along with the terminology. The fundamentals and understanding of the game along with having fun is what's important.

 

Another issue is coaching and getting quality coaches at the MS level. When you have larger numbers you need more coaches. The offense and defense you run can dictate to a degree the number of coaches you need. I can tell you right now if you are a spread team you better have three legit coaches. I mean three guys who really know their stuff. You can get by with one or two in other systems.

 

Kids change a lot from MS to HS. A kid that was a RB might turn into an OL. An OL in MS might turn into a QB ( Chris Redman was a tackle and Couch was a TB). Predicting MS to HS is even a less exact science than predicting college to the NFL.

 

What we have done is moved to a two platoon system at the MS for both groups. More kids play and more reps. We get a lot of kids that have never played or have played very little. This allows us to teach a kid one side of the ball so he can play sooner. Be more successful and cut down on the growing pains of learning the game. Football even when you are real simple is a pretty complex game. There are a ton of things in football that are simple but are not easy. If you don't believe me on that try teaching zone combos and when to come off to a LB to a 12 year old.

One thing to consider with the current state of KY football. With head coaches changing in HS every 3-4 years on average (at least by what the number of openings suggest), by the time the MS kids get to HS, its a new system, new HS coaches, starting all over again. So how much impact can it really have at the lower levels, when the players grow up and get to HS and its a different system.

 

I think you see the teams that dont have these coaching changes regularly seem to be the ones succeeding the most.

 

 

Also, I think the youth/ms coaching changes play an important impact as well. Many of the successful, youth/ms teams, the coaches have been in place for a decent amount of time.

I'm not sure what your experience is with MS football but a majority of the state plays with FED rules with the only change being they overlook the numbering exemptions. Youth leagues do the weird stuff with 2pts for a PAT and ball carrier weight limits among a number of other strange ones.

 

As far as following what the HS does well it's not exactly that simple. I've coached MS ball at the same place for 12 seasons. The HS has had four different HCs during that time frame. At one point having three different HCs in three years. The offense and defense has changed even more than that along with the terminology. The fundamentals and understanding of the game along with having fun is what's important.

 

Another issue is coaching and getting quality coaches at the MS level. When you have larger numbers you need more coaches. The offense and defense you run can dictate to a degree the number of coaches you need. I can tell you right now if you are a spread team you better have three legit coaches. I mean three guys who really know their stuff. You can get by with one or two in other systems.

 

Kids change a lot from MS to HS. A kid that was a RB might turn into an OL. An OL in MS might turn into a QB ( Chris Redman was a tackle and Couch was a TB). Predicting MS to HS is even a less exact science than predicting college to the NFL.

 

What we have done is moved to a two platoon system at the MS for both groups. More kids play and more reps. We get a lot of kids that have never played or have played very little. This allows us to teach a kid one side of the ball so he can play sooner. Be more successful and cut down on the growing pains of learning the game. Football even when you are real simple is a pretty complex game. There are a ton of things in football that are simple but are not easy. If you don't believe me on that try teaching zone combos and when to come off to a LB to a 12 year old.

@barrel and I are not sitting together and having lunch and posting on BGP at the same time, I promise. lol

I think Middle School football is a good thing. The only thing I don't like is how schools that don't have a middle school, or even a junior high are able to have a middle school team. In my mind it is almost like recruiting, because you can get kids in your program early from other areas then, learn the system and build friendships with other teammates and so it much more likely that player would want to definitely stay then at that school for high school.

Where do you win without teaching fundamentals ? Not in middle or high school

Gotcha

By short term do you mean only worrying about winning? I think if a coach is worried about winning, the coach would be teaching the fundamentals and working on them getting better because that is what leads to wins. Granted there are those that do not know how to teach the fundamentals. Also, there are others that lack the ability to organize things to maximize time to teach effectively(this is not just a MS coach issue).

What is the goal or role of the MS coach, in your opinion?

 

I think that a good middle school coach balances winning and developing the kids equally. In a best case situation they go hand in hand. But I have seen coaches at some schools that had zero concern for developing their players for anything beyond MS.

 

I'm not looking for "little Robots" either as you asked in the other post. But at smaller programs that count on young players coming up each year with some being counted on to play, it is a big help when the HS and MS use the same terminology. Our local middle school uses similar terminology and schemes as the high school team does, when the kids get to high school the learning curve is much much shorter than for kids where teams don't. Some years our MS team goes shotgun 80% of the time some years it's under center 80% of the time depending on talent but the basic offensive scheme is the same in MS and HS, they just adapt to the talent.

 

I had a friend tell me that his son's MS coach refused to discuss incorporating what the high school did because he wanted to prove he could do it "His Way"...IMO that is the wrong attitude of a MS coach. MS should be used as a tool to develop and grow your program...not adversarial to each other.

Where do you win without teaching fundamentals ? Not in middle or high school

Unfortunately MS can fall into the same trap as youth. Teams with older kids, physically more developed, faster, or just better athletes can win without being fundamentally sound. When that is the case players can get away with poor technique and the such. You can also see it at times on the HS level though you're not winning championships like that. Another thing is at times you can get away with unsound schemes due to players being limited in their ability to take advantage of the defense or offense being unsound.

I'll clarify: Depends on your middle school schedule.

Highlands has always benefitted from having a FTJrFL. More kids playing gives the HS team more options at all the positions. They use rules for weight, playing time and formations so that fundamentals are first and results are second. It results in many more freshman at tryouts. They may struggle as freshman but when the coaches get a year to mesh the boys together it really works. It's hard to see the big picture as a parent who wants to see their kid play more until you see all the boys on the field and the trophies in the front lobby:thumb:

I would think Boone County with its several high schools, Pee Wee league and a couple of Middle School teams would be a good test case to see if one system works better than the other. It has been a couple of years now since Ryle and Cooper parents (?) started their own Middle School teams and left the BCPWFL. At one time, all the boys went through the BCPWFL but then Ryle developed its own 7th and 8th grade teams and then Cooper did the same. Conner and Boone County High Schools don't have Middle School teams and so most of their future players still go through BCPWFL.

 

Results at the High School level may not be fair to judge right now with the number of coaching changes at Boone County High School in recent years. However, with the Ryke and Cooper teams you get the Middle School system while with Boone and Conner you get the multiple team youth league system. If anyone is familiar with this scenario, maybe you could comment. I don't have enough history/experience in the area's football culture to be able to provide perspective.

 

I am not trying to stir up controversy with this post. I know there may be hard feelings that some may have over the split from the BCPWFL. That is the last thing I want to do. But I am interested to know how Ryle and Cooper have been effected by having a group of guys play together and learn together for a couple of years before going to H. S. Seems like there could be benefit to that. Maybe others feel the best system for the players and their future teams is to get the broader experience of playing in the available youth league.

I think Ryle's first group to play as a MS team is now SR but I might be off by a year or so. I know Ryle's 6th and younger play in a youth league while their 7th and 8th play out in the state. MS wise they are very good both talent and coaching wise.

 

Cooper had two teams last year that played I believe in the oldest division of the NKYFL. From the team photos it looks like they split into two teams of roughly 16 players or so.

 

The FTjrFl is a very well run league. They keep everything in house. They only at each other. They are not required to run the Highlands offense or defense. That information is from Mueller. I do believe they have a rule on passing which requires a certain amount of attempts throughout the game. While the Ft Thomas league is a very important part it is a very small part of why HHS has been so successful. Mueller was very involved with the young kids so he wouldn't get the "soccer rejects" (his words). His approach to many things in HS was/is different than what many experience. They work very hard to develop and retain players through HS. Kids that I believe in many programs would of been run off. He also appeared to not force kids in a sense that if getting a talented kid on the field means he oy runs fades and posts then do it. His offseason development and approach was pretty different too.

 

I've always heard the CSAA was a great league. Extremely well coached with a great tradition. I know a couple of guys that coach in it. If they are any indication than those kids are being coached better than a number of HS kids. It is also my understanding though you see your typical youth league variations on offense and defense and not everyone is trying to run youth friendly versions of T or X's systems. Though one of the coaches I know uses Coverdale's PPTs that are on the Internet to help install his passing game.