I think this is what differentiates athiests like formerkywrestler and ScienceFriction. Formerkywrestler while not shy about being an atheist and also enjoys joking around with believers in regards to their faith but, he is respectful of believers, I don't think he looks down on believers and I believe his view is if faith makes people happy and their faiths don't infringe upon him, he is quite happy with those of us of faith that we have something that provide hope and comfort even he doesn't believe the object of that faith even exists.

 

ScienceFriction posts are different. While he too is not at all shy about his atheism, his posts about faith and the faithful are often disrepectful, his posts look down on the faithful almost to the point that we are ignorant, mouth breathing, knuckle draggers who have not caught up to the reality of the enlightened like himself.

 

Would you all say I summed that up pretty well?

 

I have said it before, I can live with you not liking and/or not accepting my Catholic/Christian faith but I do ask that you respect it like I respect your atheism, agnosticism, evangelicalism, Buddism, Judiasm, Islam, etc...

 

Absolutely perfect. It's clear his sole purpose is to mock and ridicule religion and those of faith.

So making fun of and belittling the beliefs of others is your idea of discussion? All you're doing is trying to mock others for their beliefs.

 

 

No. Just saying there are certain beliefs that seem totally illogical to me. Certain religious beliefs are at the top of that list. Is it possible for someone like me to state how ridiculous they find certain religious views without being seen as ridiculing the person? I do not mean to poke fun at any individual , just talking about religion, in general.

 

The same I think happens with politics. When someone ridicules liberal thought or conservative thought as being crazy, those who are of that philosophy gets ticked off as if they were being attacked personally.

 

I wish I could believe that there was a man in the clouds somewhere that loved me and was watching over me and was preparing a place for me after I leave here- a place where I would re-unite with my loved ones, a place with streets of gold, a big mansion, 72 virgins, neverending. It's a beautiful, beautiful thought and is precisely why people believe in things they otherwise would think was crazy. We want so much to believe in those things.... So we defy all rational thought and... we believe . Plus, we have it ingrained in every fabric of our being from the time we are babies. I was a Baptist growing up. Went to a Southern Baptist church from infancy until adulthood. Then I ent off to college, graduated, became a scientist and mathematician and begin serious thinking about all I had been told was true since childhood and realized it was just plain nutty. I still consider myself to be spiritual person with a deep sense of a purposeful connection to the Universe. That is satisfactory for me for now.

 

One of the best ladies I know is a teacher I work with. She is all about her religion and is someone who is incredibly sincere in what she believes. She lives what she believes to the nth degree. Yes, I think what she believes is absolutely crazy. But I think she is a wonderful woman. I say that to you as well. Just because I may think your religious views are crazy doesn't mean I couldn't think you are wonderful. I just find no scientific basis for the claims made by most religions. Bible verses or Koran verses are not sufficient for me.

 

Again, what about Carlin's quote is false?

I think this is what differentiates athiests like formerkywrestler and ScienceFriction. Formerkywrestler while not shy about being an atheist and also enjoys joking around with believers in regards to their faith but, he is respectful of believers, I don't think he looks down on believers and I believe his view is if faith makes people happy and their faiths don't infringe upon him, he is quite happy with those of us of faith that we have something that provide hope and comfort even he doesn't believe the object of that faith even exists.

 

ScienceFriction posts are different. While he too is not at all shy about his atheism, his posts about faith and the faithful are often disrepectful, his posts look down on the faithful almost to the point that we are ignorant, mouth breathing, knuckle draggers who have not caught up to the reality of the enlightened like himself.

 

Would you all say I summed that up pretty well?

 

I have said it before, I can live with you not liking and/or not accepting my Catholic/Christian faith but I do ask that you respect it like I respect your atheism, agnosticism, evangelicalism, Buddism, Judiasm, Islam, etc...

 

Do you respect atheism ? Or do you respect the choice of one to be an atheist?

Absolutely perfect. It's clear his sole purpose is to mock and ridicule religion and those of faith.

 

Every time those of science say something about faith being impossible, I always think of my astrophysicist friend who teaches and does research at UofL. I posted the below about 7 months ago, it relates to this thread to some degree also.

 

I don't know if he answered with what his scientific credentials are but let me give the credentials of a good friend of mine who is a man of science who is currently on sabbatical doing research at the University of Paris.

 

This friend obtained an undergraduate degree from Ohio State University with a triple major in Math, Physics and Astrophysics (astronomy to those not in the field). His academic success at OSU allowed him to bypass a master's degree and go straight for his doctorate degree to which he was a Marshall Scholar (Similar to a Rhodes Scholar) to which he attended Cambridge University in England and received a PhD. in Astrophysics.

 

After receiving his doctorate, he was a post-doctoral researcher at Cerro Tololo Inter-American Observatory in la Serena, Chile for three years. Then he was a post-doctoral researcher at MIP fur Astronomie in Heidelberg, Germany for three years. Then he was an Assistant Scientist at STIS group at NASA in Greenbelt, Maryland for five years. Then he was an Associate Research Scientist at FUSE Group and Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore Maryland for four years.

 

His is now a tenured Associate Professor (about to be promoted to full professor) at the University of Louisville in the Department of Physics and Astronomy. His published research has resulted in his being invited to numerous other universities and conferences to discuss his findings to other scientists in the field.

 

When inquiring with him if science disproves the existence of God his answer is the following (I am paraphrasing):

 

"When I have looked over my career at how the galaxies have been formed and how they exist now, I obviously believe the Big Bang or something like it did happen. But to think the Big Bang happened and everything fell into place as it did in such order in a completely random fashion is so remotely possible I can hardly be consider it. I cannot believe that some divine force did not cause or have a hand in such a course of action."

 

Now, some would ask him if God's existence can or ever will be proven. His reply is probably not otherwise, what point is there in faith? He continued that many in the field of science have adopted the view, "If I cannot understand it or prove it, I don't believe it." His reply is that such an attitude is intellectual hubris.

Absolutely perfect. It's clear his sole purpose is to mock and ridicule religion and those of faith.

 

Not true.

 

If you ridicule a liberal thought or idea , should I take it that you ridiculing me? I don't think I should. And I don't. Just because one thinks poorly of the thought doesn't mean he has to think poorly of the thinker.

I'll take some time today to pray for you...really, seriously, I will...I promise. I don't know you...never met you...probably never will. But if God loves you (which he does), so do I. And that, my friend, is what makes Christianity and a relationship with God special.

 

Thank you. I may not believe in all that you do , but I can still believe in you. Much appreciated.

Do you respect atheism ? Or do you respect the choice of one to be an atheist?

 

I do. I don't agree with it but I respect it.

Again, what about Carlin's quote is false?

 

It's not about what's false or what isn't. It's about being smarmy and sarcastic in the face of other peoples' beliefs. That isn't argumentation... it's not even discussion, it's mockery. And that's fine if you're a stand-up comedian trying to make people laugh about some of the trickier points of the Christian faith. It's darn difficult to reconcile how a loving and all-powerful God would let people deliberately turn their backs on Him without stepping in. No disagreement there.

 

Do we believe human beings have free will, despite any concept of predermination or predestination or anything else? That is to say: can human beings fundamentally make their own choices?

 

If the answer is "Yes", then are human beings permitted to use their free will to turn their backs on God or even hate God?

 

Keep that one in the pocket for a moment.

 

This "special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish" is clearly a common view of hell or perdition or gehenna or whatever you want to call it. It is the destination for the immortal souls of those who turned their backs on God through sin. How can this be right? How can this be merciful? Difficult to see, but remember that one of the qualities we ascribe to God is that He is just.

 

We know from looking around us that not all sin is visited with punishment in this world: corporate criminals get rich at the enmiseration of the people around them; warlords tear apart families and rape and murder their neighbors only to see their power and influence grow; it goes on and on.

 

So how could God's rule represent justice if temporal punishment, which we've just shown to often be non-existent, was all there was? People elect to turn their back on God; it is a consequence of free will. Electing separation from God in this life means separation from God in the next. Is it any wonder that consequence is interpreted as fire and torment? What would it be like after death to be held truly accountable for one's sin, done for one's own will and not the will of God? God respects the choice one makes in his own life. God is not only infinitely good, he is infinitely wise, holy and just.

^^^ And that separation you speak of is for a very long, long time.

It's not about what's false or what isn't. It's about being smarmy and sarcastic in the face of other peoples' beliefs. That isn't argumentation... it's not even discussion, it's mockery. And that's fine if you're a stand-up comedian trying to make people laugh about some of the trickier points of the Christian faith.

 

You summed it up the perfectly how disagreement with ideas can be done in a respectful manner or in a very disrespectful manner.

 

Going the opposite extreme I am reminded of a former poster on this board who was zealous in his fundamentalist faith and could not understand how to disagree in a respectful manner either.

It's not about what's false or what isn't. It's about being smarmy and sarcastic in the face of other peoples' beliefs. That isn't argumentation... it's not even discussion, it's mockery. And that's fine if you're a stand-up comedian trying to make people laugh about some of the trickier points of the Christian faith. It's darn difficult to reconcile how a loving and all-powerful God would let people deliberately turn their backs on Him without stepping in. No disagreement there.

 

Do we believe human beings have free will, despite any concept of predermination or predestination or anything else? That is to say: can human beings fundamentally make their own choices?

 

If the answer is "Yes", then are human beings permitted to use their free will to turn their backs on God or even hate God?

 

Keep that one in the pocket for a moment.

 

This "special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish" is clearly a common view of hell or perdition or gehenna or whatever you want to call it. It is the destination for the immortal souls of those who turned their backs on God through sin. How can this be right? How can this be merciful? Difficult to see, but remember that one of the qualities we ascribe to God is that He is just.

 

We know from looking around us that not all sin is visited with punishment in this world: corporate criminals get rich at the enmiseration of the people around them; warlords tear apart families and rape and murder their neighbors only to see their power and influence grow; it goes on and on.

 

So how could God's rule represent justice if temporal punishment, which we've just shown to often be non-existent, was all there was? People elect to turn their back on God; it is a consequence of free will. Electing separation from God in this life means separation from God in the next. Is it any wonder that consequence is interpreted as fire and torment? What would it be like after death to be held truly accountable for one's sin, done for one's own will and not the will of God? God respects the choice one makes in his own life. God is not only infinitely good, he is infinitely wise, holy and just.

 

 

What about when God Himself does horrible things to innocent people? How is that loving and just?

 

Just one example of God killing innocent children and babies is in First Samuel 15, v. 3:

 

"Now go smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep , camel and donkey."

 

 

What did these little children do to deserve death? And don't say that God gave the children a chance to repent because He did not. Besides, what would a breast-feeding infant have to repent about ? What would possess a loving God to order the killing of a suckling infant by an army of nearly a quarter of a million men? There are many other instances in the Bible where God killed innocent children w/o any chance to repent. In this case, they were killed for the alledged sins of their parents. God even ordered the killing of the pregnant Amalekite women, and so their fetuses were aborted.

 

All of this and God wasn't satisfied with Saul. If you recall God was PO'd at Saul because he spared the lives of some animals. He was so angered with poor Saul, in fact, that he was grieved that He had made Saul king over Israel. That's right, God regretted His decision to make Saul king. So, to me, this clearly contradicts the claim that God is perfect. For, if God is perfect, all of his decisions would be perfect and He would never have to have regrets about a decision He made. Of course, how could anyone that orders the killing of innocent infants be perfect? You see what I mean. Just makes no sense at all. There are countless verses such as this that will never show up in a Sunday sermon. I had to read the Bible many times over the years to find things that I was never told on Sunday morning as a dedicated young church- goer in my Southern Baptist church.

 

 

Sorry if this is viewed as smarmy or sarcastic but am confused by this God of yours. There are so many verses of the Bible that paint God as vengeful and bloodthirsty. Now I know many of you are staunchly pro-life. How can you possibly defend the killing of fetuses by God? How can I serve this type of God? Very, very confusing. If there was a GOD then clearly he would not resort to such ugly behavior toward innocent babies. I must, therefore, conclude until evidence proves otherwise that there is no GOD, at least not the God of the Bible or the God of the Koran.

Edited January 23, 201511 yr by Science Friction

Sorry if this is viewed as smarmy or sarcastic but am confused by this God of yours. There are so many verses of the Bible that paint God as vengeful and bloodthirsty. Now I know many of you are staunchly pro-life. How can you possibly defend the killing of fetuses by God? How can I serve this type of God? Very, very confusing.

 

And I'm confused by you. Nothing you said there sounded smarmy or sarcastic; that was before, so please don't try to turn my words around the other way.

 

All of it is a mystery to me, to be sure. The best answer I can try to muster is this: man is bound by the laws of God; God is bound by nothing. The God of the Old Testament was certainly vengeful and jealous: the prerogative of a deity, I suppose. Not only were those children put to the sword out of vengeance for the sins of their fathers, they were also prevented from following their parents' terrible examples and growing up in their same path toward sin. Instead, my own understanding would suggest that their souls were taken into heaven.

 

I may not be the person you want answering this as I've never had the bubbly "God is Love" attitude that is so much a part of contemporary Christianity. God is, first and foremost, the father, and sometimes when you're a child, it's difficult to understand what father is all about. He sees; he judges; he punishes and rewards. He loves, certainly he loves... but it's not as simple as all that.

And I'm confused by you. Nothing you said there sounded smarmy or sarcastic; that was before, so please don't try to turn my words around the other way.

 

All of it is a mystery to me, to be sure. The best answer I can try to muster is this: man is bound by the laws of God; God is bound by nothing. The God of the Old Testament was certainly vengeful and jealous: the prerogative of a deity, I suppose. Not only were those children put to the sword out of vengeance for the sins of their fathers, they were also prevented from following their parents' terrible examples and growing up in their same path toward sin. Instead, my own understanding would suggest that their souls were taken into heaven.

 

I may not be the person you want answering this as I've never had the bubbly "God is Love" attitude that is so much a part of contemporary Christianity. God is, first and foremost, the father, and sometimes when you're a child, it's difficult to understand what father is all about. He sees; he judges; he punishes and rewards. He loves, to be sure... but it's not as simple as all that.

 

 

While not necessarily in agreement with the view , I appreciate the answer. I need something to be more than it being just a mystery before I will give my life over to it and believe it with all I have. I would love to believe in the fairytale life that many religions claim there to be after we are gone from here but there is not one scintilla of evidence for those claims- not in any of them.

While not necessarily in agreement with the view , I appreciate the answer. I need something to be more than it being just a mystery before I will give my life over to it and believe it with all I have. I would love to believe in the fairytale life that many religions claim there to be after we are gone from here but there is not one scintilla of evidence for those claims- not in any of them.

 

Obviously that is your right but can you understand why many feel sorry for you and your lack of faith?

Obviously that is your right but can you understand why many feel sorry for you and your lack of faith?

 

Yes I can. I can see why others who feel very strongly the other way would feel sorrow. Feeling sorrow doesn't make them right and me wrong about God though.