Okay, understand what you're saying, but you are contradicting yourself a little with your reasoning. You say let them be kids and don't push them upward when talking about the 8th graders. Yet your answer for the 5 freshman girls that would like to play freshman ball is to move them up! So do those 5 freshman not get included in the "let them be kids and play at their level" argument. That's just tough luck. If you want to play, you are "forced" to move up. I understand that your "no exceptions" may fix a lot of issues, but there are other issues it creates. So it fixes issues that are important to you, but if I'm a parent of one of those 5 freshman girls, it creates a huge issue for me!

 

Where are TOG and OTB84 when I need them ...

 

Let's be clear .. this isn't about me. And it's not about my kids not getting to play. Both had opportunities to play up as middle-schoolers, but we discussed it, and we didn't think it was a good idea. Both were in on the decision. And neither lost out on playing time as HSers because of grade school players.

 

A huge issue? I think you're stretching it. JV is largely comprised of sophomores. Freshmen can compete with sophomores just fine.

 

It comes back to, you're playing for YOUR school. Not the school you're going to next year or the year after .. YOUR school.

Very valid points with the exposure issue. But again, may be dependent on the specific situation. If the girl has an older sibling, she is already exposed to it more than you think. I know dads don't want to hear that!!!!...but it's reality. So if she is the oldest and you are trying to protect her as longs as possible...I totally get it. But if she has older siblings...too late! I only say that because my feeling is it should be specific to each kid and each families discretion. I think if that family feels their daughter is ready, they should have that choice. Will some families make some bad decisions...sure! But if they are making bad decisions on whether to move their child up either they will learn from it or they or making more bad decisions in other areas anyway.

 

If my daughter has the ability, skill, body and mind to play up, no one should be able to tell me if she should or can. Just the way I feel. I want her challenged, just like I would academically. Has nothing to do with with pushing her too far or wanting glory for me or her. It has to do with making sure she is challenged and is pushed. Why would this be any different than anything else in life. Everything we do should be to help us get better and not getting comfortable. In ANYTHING we do, we set goals to reach a plateau and then when we do, what's next? Set another goal! It applies to sports as much as anything else. Keep pushing.

 

I can tell you right now...I have an 8th grade daughter that could absolutely play up in high school. Highlands MS principal has made his own rule that none of his MS kids can play up anymore. The Barth girls was grandfathered in because she was in the HS program before he made the rule. So my daughter and one of her best friends (who is also very good) will be playing 8th grade this year. In the 6th and 7th grade, the only challenging games and time that those two actually played more than a quarter at the same time were against Conner, Another very good team. In the past two years, the two really good girls on the HHS team were lucky to avg half a game. NOW, all the other schools have basically move up anyone that was good. So the last two years, most games ended with "slow down, no layups and we have to make 5 passes before we shoot". Now with the good 8th graders gone and our two still playing 8th grade, please tell me what my daughter is going to get out of her 8th grade bball season athletically. Just my opinion, but her and her friend may not get challenged one time this year. That's not being cocky, it's reality. That's not what I want and it's not what she wants. She loves competition and she will get none. Her and her friend are in the same grade as the barth girl and still can't play with her for another year because of a silly rulle...when she have the ability and the body to do so. Heck, she's bigger and stronger than my JR that has started at PG since the 8th grade!!!

 

I understand your point (and congratulations on having a couple of studs!), but that is what the AAU circuit was created for.

 

Those of us from the 70's remember Dickie Beal dropping 40 on us down at the Boys Club in Newport like it was nothing!! I don't recall him playing up, and he turned out just fine, because he had the Jr Pro circuit. We turned out ok too. My son got annihilated by Carson Williams a few years ago .. it was no big deal .. nothing we could do about it. But he and Beal were respectful about it .. no showboating, no taunting. Have your daughter drop 40 on a team and enjoy it (if it's done with sportsmanship). And then challenge her on the AAU circuit, but have her enjoy playing with her schoolmates.

Example. I coach softball at HHS. We have a freshman, jv and varsity team. We have carried right around 38 players for the two years I have been there. Highlands is a mid-sized school. Out of those 38 players in our program, the most high school kids we've had in the entire program has been 14. So if MS kids were not allowed to play up, we would have no freshman program or JV! Yet I have 25 MS kids that would love to learn the game and play. Should they not be allowed? What happens to my varsity program over time if I can't get any of those kids early? I tell you what happens...it goes away. For two years, our we had MS starters and the first 4-5 kids off our bench were MS kids. Without MS kids, we have no program. And we won the region last year!

 

Softball is a challenge .. no question (similar to football). I think you are probably still a victim of the switch from slo to fast pitch .. just not enough girls have played fast pitch at a young age and have developed to compete. However, based on reading your coaching philosophy, I really believe you would figure out a way to make it work. You would. You would probably devote as much time to developing the MS program, while integrating the younger players with your upperclassmen.

Where are TOG and OTB84 when I need them ...

 

Let's be clear .. this isn't about me. And it's not about my kids not getting to play. Both had opportunities to play up as middle-schoolers, but we discussed it, and we didn't think it was a good idea. Both were in on the decision. And neither lost out on playing time as HSers because of grade school players.

 

A huge issue? I think you're stretching it. JV is largely comprised of sophomores. Freshmen can compete with sophomores just fine.

 

It comes back to, you're playing for YOUR school. Not the school you're going to next year or the year after .. YOUR school.

 

Actually it is...think about it. Not saying they those freshman would be far off from competing with sophomores or avg JR's...However they could be if they are very average freshman. If they were good freshman, they would have probably already moved up to JV.

 

Secondly, Let's take those 5 freshman and move them up. Now you have 15-17 kids on the JV team??? How is that going to be good for anyone?? Because the program probably already kept 10-12 kids for the JV team right? So now those 5 freshman's options are...not have a freshman team or play JV, go to all the practices and bust your tail and probably hardly ever see the floor. Not because you aren't good enough but because you have 15 kids on the roster! So yes, huge issues if I'm the parent of one of those freshman.

 

The next step you will say well throw them all in and make cuts together and only keep 10. Well now were back to cutting older kids to keep younger ones that should have their own team. Yes, you can say they are all in high school now and you are correct, but the principal is exactly the same. Keep the best!

 

So yes, it has trickle down on both sides...just depends on what side is important to you for which side you support.

Actually it is...think about it. Not saying they those freshman would be far off from competing with sophomores or avg JR's...However they could be if they are very average freshman. If they were good freshman, they would have probably already moved up to JV.

 

Secondly, Let's take those 5 freshman and move them up. Now you have 15-17 kids on the JV team??? How is that going to be good for anyone?? Because the program probably already kept 10-12 kids for the JV team right? So now those 5 freshman's options are...not have a freshman team or play JV, go to all the practices and bust your tail and probably hardly ever see the floor. Not because you aren't good enough but because you have 15 kids on the roster! So yes, huge issues if I'm the parent of one of those freshman.

 

The next step you will say well throw them all in and make cuts together and only keep 10. Well now were back to cutting older kids to keep younger ones that should have their own team. Yes, you can say they are all in high school now and you are correct, but the principal is exactly the same. Keep the best!

 

So yes, it has trickle down on both sides...just depends on what side is important to you for which side you support.

 

It's a fascinating issue. It's also an issue that has only presented itself in the last 15 or so years. Why was this never a problem before? How were schools able to compete prior to this recent phenomenon? Is it coincidence, that the issue parallels the explosion of AAU hoops and Select soccer?

 

I know, I know .. you want to be the best, and compete against the best. But what's wrong with wanting to be the best with what you have? Play the hand your dealt. Take the students that are walking the halls, be the best you can be with that.

I understand your point (and congratulations on having a couple of studs!), but that is what the AAU circuit was created for.

 

Those of us from the 70's remember Dickie Beal dropping 40 on us down at the Boys Club in Newport like it was nothing!! I don't recall him playing up, and he turned out just fine, because he had the Jr Pro circuit. We turned out ok too. My son got annihilated by Carson Williams a few years ago .. it was no big deal .. nothing we could do about it. But he and Beal were respectful about it .. no showboating, no taunting. Have your daughter drop 40 on a team and enjoy it (if it's done with sportsmanship). And then challenge her on the AAU circuit, but have her enjoy playing with her schoolmates.

 

I hear what you're saying. She plays very competitive AAU. Her team has won the AAU KY state every year they have played. 4 years now...Yes, proud papa! Sorry! So she gets pushed outside of school for sure. She IS NOT the best player on her AAU team and I love that. It pushes her.

 

But I want her to be at least challenged in school ball. I would love for her to always play on a team where she is the middle of the pack. For me, that's the ideal situation. It's not about showboating or look at my daughter at all. It's about providing opportunities for her to grow. I know there are plenty of parents that look at it as a status symbol and want to talk about their kid at the country club...but there are also kids that want challenged and thrive on competition. My daughter does enjoy playing with her friends...but her friends become "whoever she is playing with!" She plays AAU with the Conner girls that are mentioned on here and a couple others that have been mentioned. By the end of the school seasons the last two years, every kid on the AAU team could not wait to play aau with their team mates because school ball was so boring for them. Literally frustrated to the point to where they couldn't wait for it to be over...for many different reasons. You can say "let them be kids and have fun, don't push them, etc", but I can tell you the kids I'm talking about are begging for the challenge. It's not a status thing or "overzealous parents"...it's them wanting competition. In sports, you beg kids to be hungry and have the desire to get better. I wish I could bottle it up and sell it to other kids. If you blanket that over all MS kids, what message are you sending the few that have that desire.

 

I get the Dicky Beal example. I was there too. I'm that old!!! But the precedant had not been set back then. Noone even knew you could play up. No one really tried it because it wasn't as competitive as it is today and now everyone does it. You never had kids leaving early from college or going straight to the NBA. It's all evolved because of year round sports and the desire to always compete at the highest level you are able to. Heck, in today's world, if you are competing and excelling at your age level, sometimes you get labeled a "ringer". I can't tell you how many times I have heard parents say "why is he playing at this level, he should be playing up". I only use that to point out where it has evolved to. Much different than when you and I were growing up. When I was growing up...if you asked me what my favorite sport was, my answer would be determined on what season it was! Not anymore!

It's a fascinating issue. It's also an issue that has only presented itself in the last 15 or so years. Why was this never a problem before? How were schools able to compete prior to this recent phenomenon? Is it coincidence, that the issue parallels the explosion of AAU hoops and Select soccer?

 

I know, I know .. you want to be the best, and compete against the best. But what's wrong with wanting to be the best with what you have? Play the hand your dealt. Take the students that are walking the halls, be the best you can be with that.

 

This! And add select volleyball and travel softball. Its the new world. Us old schoolers have an issue understanding it...the same way I can't help my grade schooler with "new math"! WTH!!!

It's a fascinating issue. It's also an issue that has only presented itself in the last 15 or so years. Why was this never a problem before? How were schools able to compete prior to this recent phenomenon? Is it coincidence, that the issue parallels the explosion of AAU hoops and Select soccer?

 

I know, I know .. you want to be the best, and compete against the best. But what's wrong with wanting to be the best with what you have? Play the hand your dealt. Take the students that are walking the halls, be the best you can be with that.

Because parents become problems?

I agree with all of this, but there are kids that do come up with in on there own and want the competition too. I had an AAU org for about 8 years. I saw both kinds. And yes, there are a lot of overzealous parents. But there are a lot of very competitive kids that want it for themselves too. We should not generically stamp every family that has a kid playing up as having overzealous parents. Not always the case.

Agree & from my past observations as an official, I can tell you that the parents of the truly talented & skilled MS player are typically the parents you don't hear the hype from!! They sit back & let their kid's actions on the court do all the talking!!! The player, the coach & the team are better off because of that as well!!!

This is a girls basketball thread, an athletic team not academic team & if my kid was 12 yrs old but had the intelligence level of a 16/17 yr old...NO I wouldn't move them up 3 grade levels because no matter how smart a 12 yr old is, they do not have the social maturity of a 16/17 yr old!!! There are plenty of online learning sites they could get on to keep "challenging" their mind, just like plenty of AAU or club teams they could play on to "challenge" their skill level!!!

I know an unnamed former KY all-star and initial D-I signee from between 2005-2009 who graduated from high school one year early due skipping an early grade. This fine young lady is now working on her PhD ... and by the way ... she played up .. scored over 2,100 points and would have been a beast if she had played one more year in high school. Should this person have be REQUIRED to be in K-12 AND to have played down in middle school? C'mon man!!! To think so is simply faulty logic. It's good rule. Period. 'Nough said.

I know an unnamed former KY all-star and initial D-I signee from between 2005-2009 who graduated from high school one year early due skipping an early grade. This fine young lady is now working on her PhD ... and by the way ... she played up .. scored over 2,100 points and would have been a beast if she had played one more year in high school. Should this person have be REQUIRED to be in K-12 AND to have played down in middle school? C'mon man!!! To think so is simply faulty logic. It's good rule. Period. 'Nough said.

I'm not saying that there should be rules forbidding it or that there aren't young players capable of playing up. This player you've mentioned clearly belonged playing up. My problem is the fact that for every 1 MS player capable, there are 9 other MS players NOT capable & for those players to be thrown into that situation is what I find wrong. Almost every HS team in NKY has at some point played with a MS player on Varsity within the last 5 years. Before that time, it was rare to see & it seemed that coaches were satisfied coaching the HS players that came out of tryouts. Now it seems like a game of "Who has the most MS players on Varsity" since almost every school has at least 1 youngster & parents seem more & more driven to get their young superstar on that HS Varsity team!! Not every coach in NKY agrees which is why you find parents going over the coach's head & straight to the School Board!! Everyone says to let the best players play but what does it mean when a coach is saying "No they don't belong!" & the school board says "Too bad they're on your team!"?? It happens...Campbell Co. ring any bells for anyone??

Your example makes perfect sense. Since the "Boone County Verbal" sparked some of this, let's look at that. The unwritten policy for basketball is that you can move middle school players up but only if they make varsity. That precludes the scenario of stepping up to Freshman (which makes since in many cases) or even JV. It also creates a situation where it appears the middle school players talent was at the level where they were needed to be a varsity player immediately when in fact the coaches hands are tied..they have to put them on varsity in order to move them up at all. That doesn't make a lot of since. I do think it's problematic that schools or systems set their own individual rules on this as it should be governed by KHSAA.

 

I could not disagree more. The last thing we need is for the KHSAA to apply a blanket rule to all programs in the state. I could be wrong but it sounds like the problem may be in Boone County. Am I reading that correctly? A MS girl can move up only if she plays varsity? No fresh/jv option? The real question here is WHO

Is the person that made that rule? I would like to hear the reasoning behind it. Just my opinion.

Edited November 3, 201411 yr by PurplePride92
Rule 8

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I could not disagree more. The last thing we need is for the KHSAA to apply a blanket rule to all programs in the state. I could be wrong but it sounds like the problem may be in Boone County. Am I reading that correctly? A MS girl can move up only if she plays varsity? No fresh/jv option? The real question here is WHO

Is the person that made that rule? I would like to hear the reasoning behind it. Just my opinion.

 

I'm not 100% positive but I don't think its only a Boone County problem. I have heard the whole "can only move from MS to HS for V only" however I believe Cooper, Campbell Co., Newport, Scott & SK had 8th graders last year playing JV & V. I'm not sure of the freshmen rule, but it would make more sense to me if they could play freshmen instead of V. Sounds like it would solve all kinds of problems. I think if #s are low for freshmen team & you have talented 8th graders that would benefit by playing up a year then go for it. It would give more playing time to develop skills needed at the next level for those still playing 8th grade & that experience would be a good thing in the long run for any school's program. Playing up a year on freshmen or JV team seems much more appropriate than sticking them on V. If the youngster is still rocking the freshmen team, move them up to JV, if JV isn't challenging enough, then move her to V. No one says they can't earn their way on to V once games start & no one can discredit the player's skill level if they've earned that V spot along the way!! There is no way KHSAA can change the rules on it, because its too much of a hassle for them to police it!! I just think the teams that have players that have spent season after season playing together as a team throughout MS are the teams that find more success at the HS level. Each player knows the strengths & weaknesses of each teammate on the court in the game. That's just my opinion. If I coached at the high school level & I saw how my middle school players are kicking tail as a team unit, you better believe I'd keep that unit together as long as I could because that has all the markings of success!! Michael Jordan's most famous quote while playing with the Bulls was "Talent wins games, but teamwork wins Championships!"

Edited November 3, 201411 yr by PurplePride92
Rule 14

No doubt there are some really talented kids who can play up easily. West Jess has a point guard who has played varsity since 6th grade. Super talented, lightening quick, fun to watch, but so tiny as a 6th grader. She's older now and did fine but at the time you were afraid she'd be squashed. I know we want to maintain competitive skills and a continuous level of development for the players but safety and other things are issues are at play as well. Maybe have a 1 year play up rule where you have to be 8th to play Freshman/JV and 9th to play varsity. Like others have said you can always use AAU for other development for the ones who need more than school can provide

I'm not sure where this is coming from but most central Kentucky schools have remedied this by having the middle school season take place from August til October. The girls can then supplement the high school program.