Ok. How long are your memories? Look at the numbers offensively. Look at their similarity. In Bruce's defense, he's Willie Mays defensively compared to the donkey. And also in his defense, he has the ability to shorten his swing and cut down on Ks. If he does not, let's revisit this in 2015 when you are all clamoring to unload him while he still has value.

 

for the record, I hope I'm monumentally wrong.

 

Wouldn't be the first, or last, time.

 

He has shown he can make drastic changes. He is physically a lot better than he was in '11. That means he is able to identify weaknesses and improve on them. Hopefully, he notices his lack of contact is a problem and can work on that. The sooner, the better, but if it takes a few months I'm okay with it.

 

Offensively, Dunn comparisons are okay...right now. Defensively, it's not even close.

OK. Give him 2 more seasons. You'll come around.

 

Negative.

 

Not even close.

 

 

I think what Spindoc is saying is that Bruce is a new and improved version of Adam Dunn. Thus the 2.0 He isn't saying he's a Dunn clone, or just like Dunn.

 

While there is no comparison between the two defensively the offensive numbers are VERY comparable--except Bruce isn't quite as good. I went through and pulled up the numbers for Dunn's first 5 seasons vs Bruce's 5 plus the first part of this year. Here's how they stack up.

 

Dunn: 661 Games .248 Avg .383 OBP 158 HRs 374 RBIs 733 Ks 464 BBs

Bruce: 696 Games .255 Avg .330 OBP 135 HRs 387 RBIs 672 Ks 272 BBs

 

 

Except for Dunn's ability to draw walks and Bruce striking out a little less there is not much difference.

They both leave a zillion runners stranded. You can look at the advance stats on baseball-reference and Bruce is actually worse than the donkey at stranding guys. And this season, he's off to a record setting pace.

While there is no comparison between the two defensively the offensive numbers are VERY comparable--except Bruce isn't quite as good. I went through and pulled up the numbers for Dunn's first 5 seasons vs Bruce's 5 plus the first part of this year. Here's how they stack up.

 

Dunn: 661 Games .248 Avg .383 OBP 158 HRs 374 RBIs 733 Ks 464 BBs

Bruce: 696 Games .255 Avg .330 OBP 135 HRs 387 RBIs 672 Ks 272 BBs

 

 

Except for Dunn's ability to draw walks and Bruce striking out a little less there is not much difference.

 

"striking out a little less" than Dunn is not high praise!!! That said, look at his OBP.

 

When Bruce hits good pitches and doesn't try to pull everything, he is solid. Trouble is, his knowledge of the strike zone is horrific.

Bruce guesses. A lot of hitters do. It's not hard to figure out. He guesses right, he's solid.

While there is no comparison between the two defensively the offensive numbers are VERY comparable--except Bruce isn't quite as good. I went through and pulled up the numbers for Dunn's first 5 seasons vs Bruce's 5 plus the first part of this year. Here's how they stack up.

 

Dunn: 661 Games .248 Avg .383 OBP 158 HRs 374 RBIs 733 Ks 464 BBs

Bruce: 696 Games .255 Avg .330 OBP 135 HRs 387 RBIs 672 Ks 272 BBs

 

 

Except for Dunn's ability to draw walks and Bruce striking out a little less there is not much difference.

 

So we're supposed to just discount a major facet of the game to make a point seem accurate? Defense is a large part of the game. Bruce is a 4 tool player IMO. He lacks the "hit for average" aspect. Dunn was/is a single tool player.

So we're supposed to just discount a major facet of the game to make a point seem accurate? Defense is a large part of the game. Bruce is a 4 tool player IMO. He lacks the "hit for average" aspect. Dunn was/is a single tool player.

Come on, no one is knocking his defense. Read the posts. He is no different than the donkey on O and that's not a horrible knock, but the donkey was railed on in this forum for the very things Bruce is duplicating on offense. Don't change the parameters of the debate to defend your position. He is Dunn 2.0.

^He does virtually everything better than Dunn. Dunn walked more and could hit it further. Outside of that, he's better in every aspect.

His OBP is worse. He leaves more runners stranded. He walks less and scores fewer runs. But those obviously don't matter. He runs, catches and throws better, hooray.

So we're supposed to just discount a major facet of the game to make a point seem accurate? Defense is a large part of the game. Bruce is a 4 tool player IMO. He lacks the "hit for average" aspect. Dunn was/is a single tool player.

 

I thought batting average was an irrelevant stat? Isn't OBP the more important stat? If that's the case Dunn was way above average early in his career. Tools or not both of those guys are supposed to be middle of the order hitters--their overall production is very similar. Dunn was not an absolute butcher in LF early in his career either--his range factors were right at the league average. And as for speed, well Bruce is a good baserunner but far from great. He doesn't take full advantage of his perceived speed as his 29 stolen bases vs. 25 caught stealing career numbers show. I wouldn't count speed as a tool for Bruce. He may have it but he doesn't use it well. For comparison Dunn had 41 stolen bases vs. 16 caught stealing in the timeframe I referenced. On fact, for his career Bruce has a -8 runs produced by baserunning number. Dunn was a +1 for the same timeframe.

 

If you want to break it down to WAR Dunn was at 13.6 vs Bruce's 10.6 for the same period.

I thought batting average was an irrelevant stat? Isn't OBP the more important stat? If that's the case Dunn was way above average early in his career. Tools or not both of those guys are supposed to be middle of the order hitters--their overall production is very similar. Dunn was not an absolute butcher in LF early in his career either--his range factors were right at the league average. And as for speed, well Bruce is a good baserunner but far from great. He doesn't take full advantage of his perceived speed as his 29 stolen bases vs. 25 caught stealing career numbers show. I wouldn't count speed as a tool for Bruce. He may have it but he doesn't use it well. For comparison Dunn had 41 stolen bases vs. 16 caught stealing in the timeframe I referenced. On fact, for his career Bruce has a -8 runs produced by baserunning number. Dunn was a +1 for the same timeframe.

 

If you want to break it down to WAR Dunn was at 13.6 vs Bruce's 10.6 for the same period.

 

When did I say batting average was irrelevant?

I think it was FKYW that said avg was irrelevant.

When did I say batting average was irrelevant?

 

I didn't say that you said it. For most analysts OBP has replaced batting average as the more relevant statistic. You said that Bruce does almost everything better than Dunn. How about the baserunning numbers that I posted. Care to comment on that? Dunn has dropped off a ton from the first several seasons of his career. Regardless of that, his numbers are very comparable to the same time period of Bruce's career and in most cases better.

Choo 8, Cozart 6, Votto 3, Phillips 4, Bruce 9, Frazier 5, Mesoraco 2, Robinson 7, Arroyo RHP.

Choo 8, Cozart 6, Votto 3, Phillips 4, Bruce 9, Frazier 5, Mesoraco 2, Robinson 7, Arroyo RHP.

 

Meso is going deep tonight. Right it down.