Again, it doesn't matter about hypocricies and contradictions regarding other issues bc they are not being legislated here. They are very right to fight this, if you believe in the First Amendment. This is the government violating the free exercise clause.

 

Mex, you're not following or you're being obstinate. I AGREE they have the right to fight THIS issue. That's not the point.

 

Did you go to mass today? If so, what prayer did you recite at the end? We recited one about religious liberty. You're either for it ENTIRELY or you're not. IMO the Church is NOT. They pick and choose.

Mex, you're not following or you're being obstinate. I AGREE they have the right to fight THIS issue. That's not the point.

 

Did you go to mass today? If so, what prayer did you recite at the end? We recited one about religious liberty. You're either for it EN.TIRELY or you're not. IMO the Church is NOT. They pick and choose.

 

St Thomas didn't do it today. I am with you, the church leaders are hypocrites. It has been that way since the beginning. The point of this thread was the HHS, and I was arguing only on that issue.

Frankly, I find it a joke for the Catholic Church to get so worked up over this, considering how few of its followers are strict adherents to the "no sex before marriage" plank. If the Church was to get all medieval and go booting out all of its followers who violate this rule, there'd be no Catholics left, including my father, who I'd argue is as devout a Catholic as anybody on this board. Guess I was a preemie ...

So they should just chuck their standards and let everybody do whatever feels good. It doesn't work that way. That would be like saying, none of the kids get 100% so we should just stop asking them to study. So few of them do it anyway.

I am arguing that the Church is being disingenuous when we have prayers and signs that argue about Religious Liberty when in fact it's about a specific Catholic issue - birth control. Had the issue been reversed - ie no health plan can provide coverage for birth control - we would NOT be having prayers and signs about "religious liberty."

 

That's right! Because there would be no need for the church to protest something that was good.

You're either for it ENTIRELY or you're not. IMO the Church is NOT. They pick and choose.

The Church is 100% for religious liberty. They have no problem with anyone practicing their faith as they see fit. THey just don't believe that anyone's religion should be infringed upon by the government.

That's right! Because there would be no need for the church to protest something that was good.

 

You prove my point. If you're for "religious freedom" you're for ALL religious freedom even if goes against what you believe.

 

Just say what you're really for and all is cool. People can then decide whether they support your issue or not.

The Church is 100% for religious liberty. They have no problem with anyone practicing their faith as they see fit. THey just don't believe that anyone's religion should be infringed upon by the government.

 

So you TRULY believe the Catholic church would have prayers every Sunday and signs in parishoners' yards supporting an issue that another religious supports even if it goes against Catholicism? Come on.

You prove my point. If you're for "religious freedom" you're for ALL religious freedom even if goes against what you believe.

 

Just say what you're really for and all is cool. People can then decide whether they support your issue or not.

Wrong. You can be for liberty and for what's right at the same time. In fact, that's the only stance that makes sense. If it were your way, people could be in favor of the liberty to go around and kill anyone you feel like. Liberty comes with responsibility, and liberty without responsibility is just anarchy.

Wrong. You can be for liberty and for what's right. If it were your way, people should be in favor of the liberty to go around and kill anyone you feel like. Liberty comes with responsibility. Liberty without responsibility is just anarchy.

 

Asinine analogy.

 

I gave a specific example earlier that no one has responded to.

 

If the govt said that the new law forbids ANY and ALL healthcare plans from covering birth control the Catholic church would not do a thing to protest religious freedom even though there are some religions that do not forbid said birth control.

 

You agree or disagree?

Asinine analogy.

 

Clyde-speak for "your analogy is perfect, but it really messes up my point so I'm going to call it a name." :lol:

 

 

If the govt said that the new law forbids ANY and ALL healthcare plans from covering birth control the Catholic church would not do a thing to protest religious freedom even though there are some religions that do not forbid said birth control.

Since it would in no way infringe on anyone's religious liberty, your example is invalid.

Clyde-speak for "your analogy is perfect, but it really messes up my point so I'm going to call it a name." :lol:

 

Incorrect. You jump from my specific example to saying it's the same as saying murder is fine. Definition of asinine.

 

I'll ask AGAIN for you to respond to the question I posed.

Incorrect. You jump from my specific example to saying it's the same as saying murder is fine. Definition of asinine.

Jut because you fail to understand does not make it asinine. :lol:

 

You're suggesting that the Catholic church should support a hypothetical law that makes all contraceptives legal. Clearly, this makes no sense, because the Church sees this as an abomination. Morally and ethically, there would be no grounds for them to support such a law. And it would in NO WAY be hypocritical, since (as has already been discussed) it would not infringe on anyone's religious liberty.

For us, it isn't politics.

 

Who is "us"?

 

???

So they should just chuck their standards and let everybody do whatever feels good. It doesn't work that way. That would be like saying, none of the kids get 100% so we should just stop asking them to study. So few of them do it anyway.

 

The Church has already shown itself extremely malleable on multiple issues, so that horse has already left the barn. The Republicanization of the Church has led to a loud silence on the Church's efforts to fight capital punishment, since the Church's biggest donors now seem to be those ridiculous hypocrites who claim to be "pro-life" while nodding in approval at the abomination that is the capital punishment system in America, a very "pro-death" stance.

 

 

Again, I ask, if the Catholic Church was really, truly serious about this issue -- and not actually bending to the will of its hardcore right-wing donors -- would they not have excommunicated my father some 41 years ago? My father, who spent his formative days in Catholic school, who I would again argue is every bit as devout as anyone on this board if not moreso, the same guy who had a 9-pound, 13-ounce preemie some 5 1/2 months after his marriage to my mother (who remains his wife to this day). I may go to Hell for my lifelong transgressions, but I feel very secure in that my father won't be there with me to cook. He has more than balanced the ledger with his life of public service.

 

In my humble opinion, the Church is being conveniently flexible in its application of its rules by seizing upon this particular plank issue so as to not upset its biggest donors.

Really?

 

Yes. I can tell you that for fact. I was working on the case for the Diocese of Covington when I worked for their general council in college. It would be false to say that their wasn't knowledge of some of the goings on in diocesan offices back in the late 50s and the 60s, and there were some actions taken that did not address the problems and made attempts to cover them up, but those actions were not taken on the basis of any policies, nor were there any such policies that existed. They were all decisions made by individuals on the basis of what they wanted to do and have done - they were not made according to any policies.

 

It was very trying, both emotionally and morally, to learn the things that I did while the problems were being addressed in court, but I can tell you positively, they were all actions taken by individuals without any official orders or policies to do so.