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Did Ryle use the same lineup with Davis/Bush setting?

I have only attended the bigger games. When Knaley got hurt vs Lakota, Sears went in. I don't think I have ever seen Stephenson play varsity. Her stats show a good hitting percentage but she probably just does "clean up" work once the game is in hand against lesser opponents so not a fair comparison. Like I said earlier, barring a revelation, no changes will be made. I don't think I have ever seen Buck sub during a Match because a player is doing poorly - front row anyway. (He gave Colvin back the libero jersey in set 5 vs Lakota. Pictures from Chicago show she still has it.) Other than that...no subs... I would be shocked if that suddenly changed.

Bet you wish I knew something about softball.

Welcome to BGP! When posing a question like this on the forum, it is customary for you to go first with your picks. So instead of "who do you think..." You would say "I think so and so should be given a chance and here's why..." That will get you more replies. So, since you posed be question you must have some ideas on things?

I[quote=dallaslaredo;5670352 After going with a line-up that defeated national power McAuley in their own gym, and then Assumption for the first time in 2 years, who would even think "you know this line-up isn't working..." and change it for the Championship. No one. Real easy to over-analyze it now. Use the stats and outcome to illustrate a bigger picture problem moving forward - yes. But hard to say they shouldn't have gone with the same line-up that got them there - especially in that moment. I don't think l ever said a different lineup should have been started vs SHA. I think I said other players should have been given a chance earlier in the season and earlier in the Chicago trip. Rereading what I wrote and I can see where that may have been interpreted but not what I meant. Of course you go with the group that got you there, in the final, I would have liked to have seen a performance based sub come in as Draud hit negative. The disadvantage is that all I can see are match stats so maybe the negative didn't come until Late in set 2? I don't know. But only one kill for the match tells me she didn't have a lot going during the entire match. And Knaley's stats proved a sub was merited earlier in the weekend With regard to your last statement about how to use stats to illustrate a bigger Problem- I think I have more than adequately done that.

vblover, you are going to get me fired.... Re JV...I have no idea if they keep stats. I have seen them play in the bigger matches and they have a player or two that shine on a consistent basis, but since there are a lot of Freshman on the roster, I am not as familiar...yet. In the 4 big matches I saw (MND, Mercy, Ursula, Lak East) they were very, very good. But don't know stats. Stephenson definitely stands out as a leader, both emotionally and physically. I would give her the same leeway on the JV team that Hentz/Courtney get in my argument above. She truly does it all. I am impressed with B. Morgan, I would think her and Stephenson will run a 6/2 next year on Varsity since both set and hit. Morgan is a better hitter than setter right now. Gormally is undersized middle but really athletic and fun to watch, haven't seen her hops in the middle since Wulfeck graduated (who I see on the JV bench helping coach by the way), Sears is the other JV hitter who sometimes gets varsity time...nice player as well. (Side note, I so look forward to the intense debate that is bound to rage on BGP when NDA graduates this senior class and has only 3 starters returning. Who will win the 9th, etc. For those who haven't seen them, I think many would be shocked at how good the JV team is. They would beat many local varsity teams. And add in Hardig who is a sophomore playing only varsity and, I would argue NDA JV would beat MOST varsity teams in the area. I heard Kordes say one time that the great players at Assumption 'sometimes have to wait their turns' and the same is true at NDA. They will be ready next season to carry on the tradition, just as this crop of seniors had to wait their turn (besides Hentz) there is a whole JV team waiting in the wings.) As for taking the JV stats and reducing the percentages by .100 I think that is a bad way to win that argument. A varsity team for an OH is going to have a better middle game (to create seams in the block), better passing, better setting and better communication (to call shots). It is hard to compare all of these things by simply reducing the hitting percentage...you are taking into account the better team on the other side but not giving credit for the benefits of playing with varsity players on your own side. Besides playing the matches, I am not sure how you statistically compare two players. With regard to L2 getting junk balls, yes this may be true to an extent but I think that is just an excuse. A trained L2 should be able to get kills off of out of system balls. Again, if they are not, just TRY someone else....maybe that person can?? Competitive practice environment...I have no clue...none. I generally lean towards the benefit of the doubt and support of the coaches (I am generally anti parent... sorry BGPer's) but this to me seems so obvious and with the record against Louisville being 2-4 along with statistical evidence, to me a change is necessary. As for the coach's decision on Saturday, I know they are not black and white and with Buck not being there on the weekend, maybe the asst was afraid to make any changes or lacked the experience, I have no idea. I also know chemistry plays a role in these decisions so maybe that is it. My posts are statistically driven because I believe above all else, if you are truly trying to win, you put the girls out there who are going to score. Statistically speaking that is not happening. Fun debate, got my juices flowing, I may need to head out to Conner tonight to see the Pandas play!

Very good points, vblover and I love a good debate. I think it is silly to use a match that involved two top 5 college teams in the country to compare to ANY high school team. But someone did it on a thread earlier when they compared Micha Hancock to NKY high school setters so maybe it is becoming a trend. A better argument, in this case, would be to compare the players in the same positions on NDA's opponents and see, statistically, where they match up. The difficulty for me in this is that I was not at these matches so I am making a researched and educated guess on which players were the OH/Opp for the teams NDA competed against. (I think I have listed them accurately but I am not 100% so just want that out there before someone jumps down my throat...this is BGP after all.) Before I move forward with my stat comparison, I did want to note that, while my knowledge of Nebraska volleyball consists of the fact that John Cook's daughter played for for him and got a DUI (thank you TMZ), that is all I know about them. I am however a B1G fan of Penn State. Your comment above about Russ Rose having depth in the OH position is misleading once you look into the matter more deeply. And, after giving more thought on the PSU vs NE match, I can make an argument that your bringing attention to that match actually supports my call for an NDA change in the front row, but more on that later. PSU's current roster breakdown is the following: Setter (2), OH (5*), MH (3**), Opp (1), L/DS (7***) *OH hitter count includes Whitney who actually played MH vs Nebraska so for Nebraska match PSU actually had only 4 OH (Frantti, Courtney, Reed, Lee) **MH count does not include Whitney. She played MH so this count vs Nebraska, should be 4 (Washington, Thelen, Gorrell, Whitney) ***At most high level D1 schools, a Libero may get money. I would assume at PSU the libero is on scholarship but maybe not since the player who is now playing the position was not at the start of the season (line up change by Russ Rose when the current player wasn't performing) Most of these DS would be walk ons. So 11 scholarships spread over the hitting/setting corp and 1 for the L/DS. In the Nebraska match, PSU made a pretty major line up change from what they had been playing the entire UNDEFEATED season. Thelen (MH), who had been starting, got benched and Whitney who had been playing opposite, played Middle. Note the bolded, PSU had been undefeated up to the Nebraska match. The wins include: Stanford (ranked 2) 3-0 win Colorado (ranked 21) 3-0 win Wisconsin (ranked 16) 3-0 win Minnesota (ranked 21)3-2 win (these two sets were the first sets PSU had lost all season). So an undefeated team, ranked first in the country, who had lost ONLY 2 SETS the entire season made a significant lineup change to see if they could be even better. Thelen is not injured (by all accounts) but anyone can look at her stats and see why she is not in the lineup anymore. Will Rose change it back since they lost is anyone's guess. He didn't the next night against Iowa and they won. It will be an interesting season but one reason I love Penn State is that he rewards hard work and holds players accountable for underperformance and he makes changes when necessary. So...with the Whitney switch to MH, that brought in Lee who got some time at Opposite. So for this match, Rose didn't have 'depth'....Lee is his first sub as she is the only OH on the bench that has any experience. Reed (Soph OH) has played very little in the two years she has been there and all the word on Novakovic (Frosh Opp) is that she is nowhere near ready. I would assume the same is true for Gorrell (Frosh MH) since, instead of using her, a trained MH, Rose took a major point scorer (Whitney) and moved her to Middle for Thelen. In reality for the Nebraska match Rose had one OH at his disposal (Reed), not the plethora that your post implies when you say "....and they have much more talented depth." I would argue with regard to Courtney's stats the same way I would argue for Hentz. She is the best ball control, defender, blocker on the roster. She is also a senior and a leader. I am sure Courtney was not happy with her hitting percentage (especially in a loss) but she is given a lot of leeway on the offensive end, just like Hentz, because of everything else they do to help the team. Frantti is not the stud that Courtney is but, I think, is probably entitled to a bad night...she did not play her best. However, even in this scenario, Rose had one sub (Reed) to put in for either of them. To reiterate, vblover, your post about PSU supports my decision that when things are not working or players are underperforming, coaches make changes. Russ Rose, arguably the best volleyball coach in the nation, did just that. MH2 (Thelen) gets benched and a whole lineup shift had to happen that includes one player 'out of position' (Whitney) and a bench player (Lee) getting some time that one can only assume she has earned. Russ Rose wants to win a NC and NDA wants to win state. The difference is that Russ Rose will do what he has to and give players a chance in order to reach the ultimate goal. Take a loss early in order to see what those players can do in those types of matches and prepare them for an end of season run. I just don't think that is going on at NDA. Now on to the stat comparison that I spoke of in the opening...Unfortunately, a lot of the teams NDA plays don't enter stats into MaxPreps so I am only comparing those teams that do. vs. McAuley (Chicago) NDA WIN 2-1 McAuley O'Brien (.250), O'Connell (.278) Niego (.083) NDA Knaley (.294), Draud (.368), Hentz (.357) RESULT: Knaley and Draud win vs Sacred Heart (played in Louisville) NDA WIN 3-2 Hammons (.242), Westenhoffer (.114), Bennett (.310), Gentile (.250) *not sure who the OH is between Bennett and Gentile NDA Knaley (.121), Draud (.214), Hentz (.333) RESULT: SHA OH's win vs Assumption (LIVT) NDA LOSS 1-2 Palmer (.250), Askin (.150), Moore (.250) NDA Knaley (.071), Draud (.312), Hentz (.517) RESULT: Draud wins, Knaley loses Those are all the stats that the opponents have entered in the 'important' head to head matches. If you look just at these, two things stand out for me... First, Draud did well statistically in these matches. Her average in these three matches was a very respectable .290. That tells me that for her average (that includes all of Chicago tourney and all 6 matches agains the Louisville teams) to be .158 and .131 (respectively) she must have really struggled in some of the other matches. Second, Knaley stats speak for themselves...she is not getting it done. In these three matches her average was .160. Her average in Chicago Tourney was .190 and vs 6 Louisville matches .134. Based on averages, she is consistently not getting it done. These two NDA players, as I stated above, do nothing for the team but hit, I am only speaking in terms of stats. They don't block (minimal), dig, pass or serve. Their only responsibility is to hit...unlike Frantti and Courtney in the PSU example used above, who do all of that (except Frantti usually doesn't serve but is a primary passer in every serve receive). Again, using your example, vblover as to why Rose maybe didn't make a change in the NE match for Courtney or Frantti... 1. he had only Reed on the bench and 2. both Courtney and Frantti do a heck of a lot more than hit. Subs for them would involve different serve receive patterns, another DS coming in back row. It is much more complicated than what is going on with two players at NDA whose sole responsibility is to hit. It is an easy sub to bring in another player to solely have to hit and nothing else changes. Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I am an avid, lifelong fan of NDA volleyball and simply want them to win a State Championship. I assume most people on this board are parents of current players and I don't mean to step on any toes, it is why I am trying to take a black and white look and not just my subjective opinion, especially when I don't go to every match. My points are simple...NDA has run the same lineup for the past two seasons. The only change this year is reloading the two spots Thelen and VonHandorf left open from graduation (neither of which are involved in this particular discussion). The only competition I have seen is for the Libero spot. The outside hitters seem to be given a pass and I think (and many agree) there are players on the bench who can help. If nothing else, put a fire under the butt of the player they replace if only temporarily. I was disappointed when I saw the stats and didn't see any other players get any playing time in Chicago. NDA has two matches left that will challenge them (Ursaline and Assumption) and it is almost too late to get any players experience and time to build confidence. I think for PandaNation it is clear that the coach has made his decision, regardless of stats and wkrp calling him out of BGP (that was funny, by the way!). Again, my tone should be one of fact, I am not angry or defensive. One bad thing about these boards is that you can't hear tone. If we were discussing over coffee, that is what this would sound like on my end, a discussion over a cup of joe. As always, good luck to the Pandas tonight vs Conner.

Since you quoted Max Preps... In the 6 matches that NDA has played against Mercy, SHA and Assumption Knaley (opposite) is hitting .134 Draud L2 is hitting .131 At the tournament this weekend: Knaley .190 Draud .158 (hit -.111 (1K 2E on 9Att) in the final vs SHA. Finals of a national tournament and she hits negative and no change is made?) (And before anyone questions why I mention the stats for just those two players is because NDA runs a 5/1 so Talkers sets from the front row so there is not another hitter. The L1 is Hentz, she is hitting .329 for the same six matches so I did not bother with her stats for the weekend. In addition to everything else she does, Hentz carries the load for this team offensively, so her position is not really in question, obviously. I also did not mention the middles because they play different positions than an OH and my opinion is that there is no one on the bench to help in the middle) I can agree that Knaley did well in spurts at the tournament (statistically speaking because I was not at the tournament). However, over the long haul of the important matches vs the teams that NDA has to be able to beat she and Draud hit well below .200. Statistically anything under .225 to .250 for any OH/Opp is considered underwhelming. Couple that with the fact that neither one are primary passers and neither one get many blocks, I can certainly see why there would be questions as to why no other players ever get a shot to see what they can do. Stats don't lie...must be a reason the coaches keep these players in when they obviously are not performing in the big matches.

This board is about GIRL'S volleyball, not boys. All NCAA D1 Women Volleyball has 12 full rides, men have 4.5. Thank you Title IX and football. A Handy Guide to Volleyball Scholarships | ACTIVE

It is not the KHSAA's fault that some kids start earlier, train harder and better and happen to choose to go to a high school that is good at volleyball. The last 30 years (with the rare exception) the best team has won the state championship. Public schools need to get on board and follow the privates if they want a chance. It's plain and simple. Now if you want to argue classes, I would agree with you. It is not fair for a Beechwood, Loui Holy Cross, St. Henry to have to compete with the NDA, Henry Clay's, and other Big Schools.

Actually, you are mistaken. Yes a great team will come out of the bottom half of the bracket. Will it be the best team in the state...I don't know because the state tournament has so many issues besides the blind draw. The bottom half of the bracket historically has been scheduled to start at 5:00 pm on Friday. The last four years that has never happened. It is always at least an hour to 90 minutes behind. Two years ago, the bottom half of the bracket was 2 hours behind. The final match did not end until after 11:00 pm. The turn around to a long day 2 (Saturday) at the tournament was quick with the winners on Friday playing Saturday at 1:00 and 2:30, again matches that typically running at least an hour late. So by the time the 2:30 match starts (3:15 at the earliest) it can go until 4:00-5:30 or something. With the lower bracket semifinal being at 8:30 again, quick turn around for teams that play pretty much the same 10 girls each match. Again, I remember two years ago Mercy and Assumption played an epic semifinal that started at 7:00 and went five. Incredible match that took well over 2 hours. By the time the lower bracket semi final started it was 9:45, those teams left the gym after 11:30 and had to eat, shower, get treatment, etc just to turn around and get up for the STATE FINAL early the next day...again eat, treatment, tape, etc. I am sure you see my argument. Not only are the best teams in the state all in one bracket but they are in the side of the bracket that, historically, is at a scheduling disadvantage as well. I rarely complain without a proposed solution so here it is: Seed the top 8 teams based on research, observation and results against the field. It is not that difficult. USA Volleyball is able to seed pretty accurately National Tournaments based on the above. To get the Top 8 teams right in one state when most play each other is not that difficult. If you don't want to do Top 8 then do Top 4. The remainder of the schools get drawn as to who they play. At least the big 4 aren't playing each other until the semis. Play the first round on Wednesday at the higher seed's school or start the state tournament (like they do for basketball on Wed and Thursday....but that would involve securing a new venue other than Valley High). Travel may be an issue for some of the teams but they have to travel to Louisville anyway to play one match so travel to another part of the state from the extreme east or west is not really too different. Costs should be about the same. With the first round out of the way the remaining teams in the tournament travel to Louisville for quarter final play on Friday, Semi Finals on Saturday and Finals on Sunday. One match a day, the girls can put their best effort forward, they have ample time to recover, rest and prepare for the next opponent. (I haven't even gotten into the fact of difficulties surrounding scouting and giving those scouting reports to the teams before the matches when your Friday match runs late). And truly the best teams remain and are given a chance to play at their best. The bottom line is that all sports are different and the KHSAA has historically treated volleyball like a second class citizen. I think the powers that be think we still play 8 to a side and serve underhanded...'a nice little sport for the girls to play, but it's not football/basketball'. The facts are it is one of the fastest growing sports nationally and in our state. More girls from our state go to college on volleyball scholarships than any other sports and it is the ONLY sport in our state that has consistent presence on the National Scene.

So you agree that all sports are not the same in KY? If special circumstances exist for football and cross country (fall sports like volleyball) then why can't something be done for volleyball?

This is absolutely false. Football has SIX classes and only 221 teams competing. Volleyball has ONE class and 261 teams competing. Cross Country has THREE classes (not sure of number of teams but I can't imagine it is more than 261). I looked at the draw for 1A Football and it appears to be seeded. I don't know how to get it to show up on here but here is the link. http://khsaa.org/football/2014/brackets/2014_1A.pdf Please correct me if I am reading this wrong.

Please note I put " " around elite for a reason. Some on this site have a very limited exposure base and their view on certain players is based on that. I assume that is the issue with Volleyfan, I don't know. The fact that Volleyfan is very impressed with left handed attacking by a setter tells me I may be on to something. Of course, I realize this player is probably not "elite" when compared to the Zweibels, Bushes and even Talkers of the world, but admittedly, I have not seen her play. However, just the fact that she is an unsigned senior setter tells me all I need to know. I am sure she is a nice player for Boone County and Midwest/NKJV.

NDA, Mercy, Henry Clay and Assumption/Sacred Heart on same side of draw.

Why oh why KHSAA do you still have the blind draw. It is a travesty and completely takes the season away from the teams who deserve a real shot at the Championship. Complete joke.

Setters attacking with their left hand (whether it is their dominant hand or not) is a skill most top tier setters have in their repertoire by their 16's-17's club season. Again, I am sure Borders is a good player just not sure left handed attacking from the setting position sets her apart from the rest of the "elite" level setters. It's actually pretty common.

VOLLEYFAN ...it appears your beef is with Volleyblogger. He/she is the one who called out Borders setting ability.

I am sure she is an awesome kid and good volleyball player. I have never seen her play. Just not sure why you called me out, implying I said she wasn't good or something. My reply to Sandman that merely mentioned Borders was calling out Sandman for comparing NKY setters' attacking stats to Micha Hancock's. No one in the nation can compare to Hancock, Borders or otherwise. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Ok...and your point is???

Is that you Sandman? Did you just compare NKY high school setters to Micha Hancock...the National POY, best setter to play the game in the past ten years who also happens to be left handed, who also happened to play with an AA middle and another middle who will be AA this year...think maybe all of those things had to do with her 'hitting' success? Taking nothing away from Borders or any of the setters listed but the comparison you made is simply out of line and holds no merit.

Lovins is out on maternity leave. I have no idea if she is still involved or not, I did see her at least 2/4 Ryle matches I have watched but not sure if she is allowed to have input with the team. Most of the time, Sandman, I agree with you but the posts in this thread leave me wondering if your account has been hijacked??? "Hailey Bush isn't a below average setter...." UMMM, she is the best setter in all of NKY and Greater Cincy. Only SHA setter is better from what I have seen, Mercy setter is able to get more out of her team than Bush but set location, footwork, speed to ball, blocking, defense...Bush has it all. "..don't win games offensively by engaging your middles...you win by setting the outsides..." Not sure what volleyball coaching school you got this from but without a solid middle or opposite attack an outside hitter will be shut down either by the block or defense. Every setter knows to establish the middle/slide offense early in the match to make the other side think. Without ball control, Bush can't get Legg the ball. The other middle is really an outside who they threw in middle for who knows why reason. I think she would really help them on the right side. I agree that Bush is an excellent player but she was not a beast in the matches I saw - hitting wise. She is out of system on almost every swing. Davis does a nice job but she's not a setter. Let Hayley set and Tatum pass and see what happens. Season is on the short side now, not many matches left to experiment.

Three things---I thought Cooper's coaches sucked? How is it that the team is now "playing better" and obviously improved? Could it be that certain players decided to get over themselves (and their disdain for the coaches) and just play the game? Kids gotta play for THE TEAM to win. (***DISCLAIMER-I was not at the match. My comments are based on previously watched matches) Totally do not understand why Ryle is not running a 5/1 with H. Bush? Davis is a trained DS and should be given a chance at libero. When almost everyone agrees that ball control is Ryle's biggest issue, switch things up for Pete's sake. Davis is going to college as a DS, put the jersey on her. Bush attacking on second ball is as effective As her hitting right now... Finally...why does Legg (TX MH) not hit on the pins off serve receive? Makes no sense...besides Bush ( whose percentage has to be down this season) she is strongest hitter (Stinson too inconsistent) and needs to be used to side out. At least give it a try. Ryle's coaching decisions have baffled me over the years but after watching 4 matches this year, and no real substantial changes, I had to comment. Use your personnel in the best way to help the TEAM By the way BHE=Ball Handling Errors

This is not true. My parents have "sponsored" two students at Covington Latin for about 30. years. Last year I paid tuition for a student at NDA. This year I paid tuition for a family at IHM (grade school). My parents let Cov Latin choose the students. However, my payment went directly to a student's account that I specified. It had nothing to do with athletics just families I had heard were struggling finicancially. As for the HC hate in this thread...I say you must be doing something right. People on this board hate success. Who cares if last year's state championship team were all "real" Holy Cross kids? People send their kids to HC for all kinds of academic reasons - they honor IEP's and offer special Ed help. Those kids (and coach) have the last laugh and a state champ ring on their finger. They didn't cheat, they worked hard and no one gave it to them. It was an awesome accomplishment and all of NKy should be proud. By the way, besides Boone Co Schools, can't a kid choose to go to any school they want to? So if I live in Independence, my kid could go to Scott, Dixie, NDA, Holmes, SHDHS, etc?

Salkowski is better but she is also a senior. Like someone else posted, both Salkowski and Hardig play with great ball control. Salkowski and her setter, Talkers, have played club for NKYVC since they were 11, that is a huge benefit for a middle. I'm not sure, volleymom, you are comparing apples to apples. Nicole has huge upside. She will be just fine.