Pretty neat video here. There was a big holding call on the Giants on a 3rd and 2. The Giants converted the 3rd down but it got called back for holding. They did not convert the next attempt at 3rd and 12.

 

Wilfork tells the official it was a bad call :lol:.

 

Yet both of these teams made the Super Bowl not because they had a top teir QB, they played defenses in the Championship games that made them look average. If it was not for poor special teams plays for both teams, both the Pats and Giants are not in the Super Bowl. Those top 10 defenses did their job and you know it. However the third part of a football game cost them and it was special teams. So why should I be done with the argument?

 

Especially when the Giants defense in the playoffs since they were healthy played like a top defense. They made Rodgers look average which is hard, obviously they slowed down the 49ers who beat the Saints the week before. Then they held Brady in check to and only allowed them to score 17 points. It's not like they had to have a QB to outduel Brady, their defense made Brady play like an average QB. It has never been about me saying having a top QB is bad. Even average QB's can score more than 17 points a game usually. Which is the amount the Pats scored in the Super Bowl. It has been about you failing to see that having a top defense can also be just as important, and just as important to winning. Teams with top defenses make top QB's look average and then also can beat those top QB's. Both are nice to have. These playoffs showed that even more.

 

All of the QB's that have won SB's recently are elite QB's. Most of the time they play elite QB's in the Super Bowl. Eli Manning 4 years ago was the worst QB to win one recently. He's much better than now than he was then. All year you spouted off about Defensive stats, that I told you were useless, and clearly I was right. The 29th and 32nd ranked defenses played for the SB. That clearly backs up my point that D stats are useless and you write a book saying something else. I was wrong that it would be a shoot out to win the SB, but how did defenses that are ranked so bad cause a low scoring affair when you were saying good defenses slowed down QB's? Go back and look at QB's to win a SB and QB's to start a SB the last 5 or 6 years and tell me it isn't a QB driven league and a non elite one can win it.

All of the QB's that have won SB's recently are elite QB's. Most of the time they play elite QB's in the Super Bowl. Eli Manning 4 years ago was the worst QB to win one recently. He's much better than now than he was then. All year you spouted off about Defensive stats, that I told you were useless, and clearly I was right. The 29th and 32nd ranked defenses played for the SB. That clearly backs up my point that D stats are useless and you write a book saying something else. I was wrong that it would be a shoot out to win the SB, but how did defenses that are ranked so bad cause a low scoring affair when you were saying good defenses slowed down QB's? Go back and look at QB's to win a SB and QB's to start a SB the last 5 or 6 years and tell me it isn't a QB driven league and a non elite one can win it.

 

Rodgers won it when he had a top 10 defense, did they win it now? No. Brees won it when his defense was like a top defense with the sacks and interceptions they caused. How he do this year without his defense? He lost to a guy in Alex Smith that people thought should be out of the league. Giants stats wise was not a top 10 defense this year, however they also had many injuries throughout the year. They got healthy at the end of the year and what happens? They make Rodgers and Brady look average. If they do that, does Eli win the Super Bowl? Nope.

 

You have changed what started this whole argument. What started the argument was you acting like playing teams with top QB's was harder. I argued that playing teams with top defenses can be just as hard. So how is my argument wrong, especially with how the playoffs went? Not to mention if it wasn't for special teams play neither the Pats or Giants would have been in the Super Bowl. Because those top defenses once again made those elite QB's look average. Which hmmm if top defenses make the elite QB's with experience look average, how are they going to make a rookie look? A rookie with the youngest offense in the NFL and no off season? Probably not that great. Yet this year proved he will be nothing more than average to you. This year also proved playing top defenses can be just as hard to win against. So please tell me again how you are right? I never said it was not important to have a top QB, I stated from the beginning that having and playing top defenses can be just as hard. Yes I do have to make these post long, since you choose to ignore obvious things. Especially when my whole point was playing top defenses could be just as hard, and that has been shown.

I never ever said it wasn't harder playing good defenses. I said defensive stats are useless and good offenses could score on highly ranked defenses. Ie...Saints hung 32 on SF. Total yards allowed has way more to do with how many good QB's you play than how good your D is. That's always been my point.

I never ever said it wasn't harder playing good defenses. I said defensive stats are useless and good offenses could score on highly ranked defenses. Ie...Saints hung 32 on SF. Total yards allowed has way more to do with how many good QB's you play than how good your D is. That's always been my point.

 

Which the Saints score 50 that day if it was not for that defense. That San Fran defense got the ball back to the offense, and gave their offense field position. You also talked about how scoring defense was more important, and DPR and I showed you basically how all the teams who were in the top 10 in total defense was also in the top 10 in those areas. You talked about how Dalton did decent and had a winning record because they didn't play top QB's. Which you were right about, however they did play 11 games against top 10 defenses in mostly all the key areas. You were quick to dismiss them playing those defenses, and how it would be so much harder to play and beat the top offenses. Which these playoffs have shown the teams with top defenses are also just as tough to beat. We were special teams plays away from seeing no top offenses in the Super Bowl and two top defensive teams. Never once did I say it was not important to have a top QB, all I have done is provide many things for why playing top defenses can be just a tough. So how did these playoffs support yours thing more? Never did I say or not give credit to teams having top QB's, all I did was point out the fact how your wrong to dismiss how hard it is to also beat teams with top defenses too.

Can you make a point without writing books and constantly telling me what I said? It's idiotic to keep saying you said this or you said that. Make your point, hopefully not in book form and let that work for you. You keep falsely saying I said stuff I didn't say.

Can you make a point without writing books and constantly telling me what I said? It's idiotic to keep saying you said this or you said that. Make your point, hopefully not in book form and let that work for you. You keep falsely saying I said stuff I didn't say.

 

How about your worry about yourself and how you write. Also idiotic to act like still that I wasn't right about the defenses. It is important to bring up what you said from the beginning, because what was said at the beginning was what started all this. Whicy you clearly said a few times how playing those top defenses weren't the same as playing teams with top QB's, and how it is harder to beat teams with top QB's. You made arguments about ok well DPR is more important, so I show you how basically all the same teams in top 10 in overall defense is in that too. Then we see in these playoffs these defensive teams doing great in the playoffs, knocking off top QB's and making deep runs. I never put down top QB's like you did the defenses which started this all. You have sensed changed what you say about it, which if you would have said at the beginning like you have started to say now about how it is also important to have a top defense. Also who playing top defenses can be just as tough, then we would never have gotten into this topic. So its not idiotic to bring up what you have said, since that is what started this.

The NFL is a quarteback driven league without question! There were two top tier teams I can think of that won more with their defense that is SF+Balt. They had efficent QB's that were taught more not to loose the game than win it although Smith came on late. The last two teams that I really think the defenses won the Super Bowl were the Bucs+Ravens. You can make a point the Steelers vs Sea but they pounded the ball running too. They could probably fit that category. The others were more in the hands of the QB's to win it.

Brady, Manning, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Ben haven't done too bad the last decade.

The NFL is a quarteback driven league without question! There were two top tier teams I can think of that won more with their defense that is SF+Balt. They had efficent QB's that were taught more not to loose the game than win it although Smith came on late. The last two teams that I really think the defenses won the Super Bowl were the Bucs+Ravens. You can make a point the Steelers vs Sea but they pounded the ball running too. They could probably fit that category. The others were more in the hands of the QB's to win it.

Brady, Manning, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Ben haven't done too bad the last decade.

 

Which I completely agree with. However what started this discussion was a comment by him acting like beating teams with top defenses wasn't has hard as beating teams with top QB's. Which the teams which have had top defenses consistently have shown to be very successful, just like having top QB's. Teams like Pitt, Balt, San Fran, Houston (this year) have shown how succesful they can be with a top defense. And how teams with top defenses give teams with star QB's all that they could handle. Like this year special teams is what stopped two defensive teams from being in the Super bowl. Which those QB's mentioned as great as they are, have only been able to win Super Bowls win their defenses have been doing great. Brady has yet to win a Super bowl since his defense stopped being a top 10 defense. Peyton won his when his defense in the playoffs actually figured out how to stop the run for a change. Rodgers won his when his defense was ranked #2 in the NFL, and when they weren't as good on dfense this year they didn't want a playoff game. Brees won his when his defense was stopping people and creating turnovers. Top QB's need their defense to play well to get it done when it matters, and top defenses need their QB's to at least make enough plays to help out. Which I have agreed both are important. What started this all was a comment acting like having a top defense didn't matter and was not as hard to go against. Other than that I agree it is a QB driven league.:thumb:

Actually this started b/c I said the Gals were extremely lucky to play no top QB's all year except Ben. That is a million percent true. They play a lot better QB's next year. Your point was proven idiotic b/c you touted top D's all year and the 29th and 32nd ranked Defenses squared off in the Super Bowl. Playing the QB's they played last year is the biggest reason by far they won games. I hope Dalton improves b/c they aren't playing nearly as many terrible QB's next year. I'm done with this conversation.

Actually this started b/c I said the Gals were extremely lucky to play no top QB's all year except Ben. That is a million percent true. They play a lot better QB's next year. Your point was proven idiotic b/c you touted top D's all year and the 29th and 32nd ranked Defenses squared off in the Super Bowl. Playing the QB's they played last year is the biggest reason by far they won games. I hope Dalton improves b/c they aren't playing nearly as many terrible QB's next year. I'm done with this conversation.

 

Yes instead of playing top QB's they played 11 games agaisnt teams with top ten defenses. 7 of those 11 games were against top 5 defenses and playoff teams in the Steelers, Ravens, Texans, and 49ers and made the playoffs. I know they didn't have to play top QB's, however you also would not give credit to them playing those teams, which is just as tough. I touted top defenses all year, because you failed to see that playing those types of teams can be just as hard as playing top QB's. Your right with the Super Bowl matchup featured two defenses ranked very low, and both teams were special teams plays away from not being there. Which shows my point, because I never put down top QB's like you basically did with playign top defenses. These playoffs showed my point much more than yours. Which is that playing these top defenses could be just as hard.

 

Which you also made your judgement off Dalton going against those teams. If Dalton played those top QB's that you mentioned, most of those top QB's had terrible defenses, so safe to assume Dalton would have put up much better numbers playing against those teams than against top defenses. So can't say a guy won't do well against those top QB's based on how he did playing top defenses. Those top defenses made the great QB's look average these playoffs. Say if they had played top QB's instead of top defenses, Dalton probably would have had much better stats but the team would have ended up doing around the same. That was my point all a long, playing these top defenses were just as tough as playing top QB's. Especially when it comes to how a QB would do. Now next year you are right they play more top QB's, and well still play top defenses. Next year will be even tougher. However I bet you who looks much better in those games against top QB's if those teams if they have bad defenses still.

This one is way off the tracks

Seems like the formula is top QB+Def that can force turnovers or worst case rush the passer.

Seems like the formula is top QB+Def that can force turnovers or worst case rush the passer.

 

Absolutely. Yards allowed is how the NFL ranks defenses and it's useless.

Absolutely. Yards allowed is how the NFL ranks defenses and it's useless.

 

Which you know what I did end up agreeing with you on it, and then went on to show you that basically the same teams in top 10 in yards allowed, also were in top 10 in the key areas you talked about. So that is why when I say top defenses, I didn't think I needed to clarify what I was talking about anymore since I shown you it also was in other areas.