What do you think the precentage is of things going wrong versus total number of times SWAT is used?

I don’t know. But, I think the consequences of something going wrong are drastically more severe with a SWAT raid. Like I said, there are some instances where they make good sense, but it appears they are used far more commonly and far more often for more mundane offenses than they were originally intended. This is why I ask how many we need. Does every department need one? Does every other department need one? Only departments in large cities? It seems if they spend all the money on equipment and training, they are going to find reasons to use them, even if the instances of imminent violence are rare. And if no one questions or challenges that, where will it stop?

 

Dealing with drugs, drug dealers, and murders is a dangerous business. You list 3 incidents spanning 3 years. During that same period 417 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty.

 

That’s a deceptive and irrelevant comparison. First, I chose those three cases to represent the possible consequences of these raids, not the frequency. That is far from an exhaustive list. Second, providing the number of officers killed doesn’t justify SWAT raids. Many of those officers killed in the line of duty were likely performing duties other than serving warrants, would this justify more drastic tactics in these other areas? Officers can certainly be injured or killed during a SWAT raid as well.

 

Further, nowhere have I argued that police work is not a dangerous or difficult job nor have I attempted to deride or blame these officers.

 

A person breaking the law and backed into a corner, regardless of the kind and amount of drugs involved, is dangerous. Correct me, if I am wrong, but when you serve a warrant, especially on a drug dealer or murderer, you are expecting that situation, yes? Violence would most likely be imminent.

 

I don’t think a search warrant connotes that violence is imminent. Officers are professionals trained to deal with these risky and stressful situations. I believe SWAT tactics go too far in many cases.

 

On top of that, many of these cases involved suspects that were completely unaware they were being served and instead thought they were the victims of a robbery. That seems to make the officers’ lives even more threatened than they otherwise would be.

Why do you suggest only large cities have them? You realize there are dangerous situation often times outside of large cities right?

 

You chose three cases that supported your argument. It's already been mentioned but those happened over a three year span. Imagine the officers, or civilians lives that were potentially saved by these "unnecessary" teams during that same time frame.

 

And ANY situation in law enforcement can be violent. Many criminals despise the police. Even search warrants are dangerous, some more than others.

 

As for surprising the people...if they dont use the element of surprise what do they have? First of all, if it's drug related the longer you give them the more time they have to destroy evidence. Second, the more time they have to prepare to kill, or harm the police. Surprising them catches them off guard. It gives the trained officer an advantage over an untrained person.

These are a fee examples of things that went wrong, yet you fail to even acknowledge the times where lives are saved because of these special units. Sometimes when a fellow officer is trapped in a bad situation or a violent person is barricaded in a house with guns, these "swat" type units are completely necessary. Nothing is perfect and mistakes are going to happen. But I can assure you even on warrant services that they announce they are the police.

By your assurances is it safe to assume that you go on every warrant service?

By your assurances is it safe to assume that you go on every warrant service?

 

I think the answer to your sarcastic question is quite obvious. But it doesn't mean what I said before isn't true.

Swat teams are essentially better trained, prepared, and equipped officers. I'm not sure why any law abiding citizen would want less of those type of officers in their area.:confused:

At one time not sure if they still do but Independence had a swat team I am pretty sure they will never need them I thought it was pretty funny. The other thing that gets me is all the fire trucks Independence has they have ladder trucks that we probably will use maybe one time, the fire chief strolls around in a brand new $50,000 Ford F350 Crew Cab the only places I seem at is usually Krogers loading up food what a waste of tax dollars!

Deputy U.S. marshal Derek Hotsinpiller, shot in the line of duty

 

By Lisa Rein

Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, February 17, 2011; 11:47 PM

 

Derek Hotsinpiller didn't just know he wanted a career in law enforcement. He knew he wanted to work for the U.S. Marshals Service. And at 24, he was serving search warrants in his home state of West Virginia, an unusually young deputy in a profession that has many older agents.

 

Hotsinpiller was killed Wednesday in Elkins, W.Va., when a drug suspect opened fire on him and two other deputy marshals with a shotgun before they shot him dead, authorities said. The marshals were serving a warrant on Charles E. Smith, 50, who was wanted on charges related to possession with intent to distribute cocaine. Hotsinpiller was shot in the neck and pronounced dead at a local hospital.

 

 

He just had a little cocaine....you'd think he would have just given up...

 

Really are some of you serious...the job of serving warrants is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. A few years ago a couple of deputies in central KY were shot and killed serving a simple arrest warrant on an old man living in a trailer by the KY river.

 

Every officers job #1 is to go home at the end of their shift, if the best way to do that is with overwhelming manpower then so be it.

 

Can mistakes be made...yes. Mistakes are made by doctors everyday that kill someone, mistakes are made by lawyers that send the innocent to jail, mistakes are made by politicians that just continue to screw up this country. But the police officers do a job that 99% of the people would never do. They get criticized and Monday morning QB'd to death, but they are out there everyday doing a job that has to be done.

I don’t know. But, I think the consequences of something going wrong are drastically more severe with a SWAT raid. Like I said, there are some instances where they make good sense, but it appears they are used far more commonly and far more often for more mundane offenses than they were originally intended.

 

What constitutes mundane to you?

 

This is why I ask how many we need. Does every department need one? Does every other department need one? Only departments in large cities? It seems if they spend all the money on equipment and training, they are going to find reasons to use them, even if the instances of imminent violence are rare. And if no one questions or challenges that, where will it stop?

 

I Know the local CRT (SWAT) was completely funded by drug forfieture money...no tax money was spent on any of the equipment. I think that the full CRT team has responded only a few times, but after Columbine and school shooting in Western KY, our Late Sheriff thought there was reason enough to be prepared in case such an incident were to arise locally

 

I don’t think a search warrant connotes that violence is imminent. Officers are professionals trained to deal with these risky and stressful situations. I believe SWAT tactics go too far in many cases.

 

Serving warrants, traffic stops and domestic disputes are the three most dangerous things officers do. Only one of which do they really have time to plan for and ensure their are enough officers present to handle the situation.

 

 

On top of that, many of these cases involved suspects that were completely unaware they were being served and instead thought they were the victims of a robbery. That seems to make the officers’ lives even more threatened than they otherwise would be.

 

Maybe if they called ahead the bad guys would just come out and be sitting on the porch waiting to be arrested...maybe if the Seals called ahead UBL would have just walked out and surrendered instead of running of and hiding again.

Deputy U.S. marshal Derek Hotsinpiller, shot in the line of duty

 

 

 

 

He just had a little cocaine....you'd think he would have just given up...

 

Really are some of you serious...the job of serving warrants is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. A few years ago a couple of deputies in central KY were shot and killed serving a simple arrest warrant on an old man living in a trailer by the KY river.

 

Every officers job #1 is to go home at the end of their shift, if the best way to do that is with overwhelming manpower then so be it.

 

Can mistakes be made...yes. Mistakes are made by doctors everyday that kill someone, mistakes are made by lawyers that send the innocent to jail, mistakes are made by politicians that just continue to screw up this country. But the police officers do a job that 99% of the people would never do. They get criticized and Monday morning QB'd to death, but they are out there everyday doing a job that has to be done.

 

:thumb:

 

There are hundreds if not thousands of stories out there where police went to serve warrants ranging from misdemeanors to felonies where an officer is injured, or killed. Any warrant service is dangerous, and you never know what's going to happen.

It appears another innocent father of two was killed by a swat team. Very sad.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html

 

Perhaps we will at some point see convincing evidence that Dupnik and Storie are right -- that Jose Guerena was in fact a drug dealer and violent criminal who dressed up like a cop to rob rival drug dealers and innocent citizens of Pima County. But at this point, all we have is a dead father and veteran, a violent series of raids that make little sense, and a police agency that over the last three weeks has put out incorrect information, insisted that it would be dangerous to release any further information, and, at the same time, allowed a police representative to release information favorable to the department.

 

The government of Pima County has killed one of its own citizens. This is the most serious, solemn, and severe action a local government can undertake. It demands complete transparency. The Pima County Sheriff's Department and other agencies involved in the raid ought to be doing anything and everything to make themselves accountable. Instead, they've shown arrogance, defiance, and obstinacy -- all wrapped in an appeal to public safety.

I think the answer to your sarcastic question is quite obvious. But it doesn't mean what I said before isn't true.

It actually means what you said is completely false. You, me, and everyone on here knows that you can not guarantee what you claim you can. My question may have been saracastic, but it was mainly following along a statement made with assurances you can't possible account for.

delete

It appears another innocent father of two was killed by a swat team. Very sad.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html

 

Perhaps we will at some point see convincing evidence that Dupnik and Storie are right -- that Jose Guerena was in fact a drug dealer and violent criminal who dressed up like a cop to rob rival drug dealers and innocent citizens of Pima County. But at this point, all we have is a dead father and veteran, a violent series of raids that make little sense, and a police agency that over the last three weeks has put out incorrect information, insisted that it would be dangerous to release any further information, and, at the same time, allowed a police representative to release information favorable to the department.

 

The government of Pima County has killed one of its own citizens. This is the most serious, solemn, and severe action a local government can undertake. It demands complete transparency. The Pima County Sheriff's Department and other agencies involved in the raid ought to be doing anything and everything to make themselves accountable. Instead, they've shown arrogance, defiance, and obstinacy -- all wrapped in an appeal to public safety.

 

I've been following that story. On the surface it seems awfully bad for the cops.