Do we really need so many police forces to have SWAT teams? It seems quite a lot of them have them and it’s an increasingly fashionable trend. How many of these forces commonly deal with situations where a SWAT team would be necessary? Who would consider the possible presence of drugs to be assault worthy?

 

The problem isn’t that these forces exist or that bad guys are being dealt with more forcefully, but a lot of these are claiming innocent lives – the wrong address on the warrant, the leads were wrong, someone incidental to the warrant (particularly children and the elderly), or residents simply confusing the police with burglars. I think a lot of posters here believe strongly in the second amendment and protecting their home and it would be entirely expected for many to attempt to defend themselves or their family if they thought someone was intruding, but what happens when it’s the police? For all the ire toward the government and fear of its forceful imposition, I think this is where the rubber meets the road.

 

I am not trying to villanize the police and certainly understand the dangers inherent to the job, but SWAT teams should be limited to situations where suspects are heavily armed or violence is imminent. These are far too common and over too trivial of allegations to warrant this level of militarization. And if police forces have these teams at the ready it shouldn’t be surprising that they will be using them. Furthermore, these are public decisions that many of us are signing off on, either deliberately or by simply not paying attention.

 

Here are a few articles and a link to a much longer list documenting the deaths of innocent people (and their pets) due to these assault-style raids, almost all of them on warrants served on the wrong person or over miniscule amounts of pot:

 

A Maryland mayor is asking the federal government to investigate why SWAT team members burst into his home without knocking and shot his two dogs to death in an investigation into a drug smuggling scheme….Authorities say the package was part of a scheme in which drugs are mailed to unknowing recipients and then intercepted.

 

Mayor's dogs killed

 

The 68-year-old grandfather of 12 who was killed yesterday by a Framingham police SWAT team in an early-morning drug raid was a retired MBTA worker described by shocked neighbors as the “nicest guy in the world.”

 

Eurie Stamps was not the target of the search warrant, according to the Middlesex District Attorney’s Office, and his death at the hands of police is under investigation.

 

Authorities said Stamps lived at the house with a woman whose son and another man were arrested in the raid on drug charges...

 

Grandpa killed

 

Seven-year-old Aiyana Jones was killed during a SWAT raid in Detroit over the weekend (more hereand here). Police raided a duplex looking for a suspect in a murder investigation. According to Jones' family, the suspect was arrested in the apartment opposite where the little girl was shot. Police thus far are only saying that they had a warrant for the entire building, and that the suspect was arrested in that building.

 

The family says when police tossed a flashbang grenade through the window of the apartment where Jones was sleeping, the device ignited the blanket on her bed and set Jones on fire. The police initially claimed Jones was shot after her grandmother had an altercation with one of the officers. They now say the contact with the grandmother was incidental and the gun discharged accidentally. According to the family, neighbors warned the officers that there were children in the home, and pointed officers to toys in the front yard.

 

Seven year old shot

 

A massive list of more: http://reason.com/topics/militarization-of-police

Most if not department's SWAT aren't a bunch of guys waiting around until needed. They work normal shifts like every other cop in their department but have trained as SWAT and perform those duties when needed. In other words it's not like the things you post would go away if there weren't SWAT teams.

I wish we had more SWAT Teams, but mistakes happen and they need to make sure of things before busting into the wrong house.

I wish we had more SWAT Teams, but mistakes happen and they need to make sure of things before busting into the wrong house.

 

More, really, why?

These are a fee examples of things that went wrong, yet you fail to even acknowledge the times where lives are saved because of these special units. Sometimes when a fellow officer is trapped in a bad situation or a violent person is barricaded in a house with guns, these "swat" type units are completely necessary. Nothing is perfect and mistakes are going to happen. But I can assure you even on warrant services that they announce they are the police.

More, really, why?

 

 

more bad guys with bigger guns now days, especially the drug cartles coming into the US

I would have to agree with mountain ref. It is a terribly dangerous world out there. Today's criminals seem so much more hardened and heartless than before. I think the better trained and armed our police are, the better.

 

These are horrible mistakes. If it was my family member, I would be furious. In hospitals, when things go wrong, there are staff meetings to openly discuss what went wrong and why. This prevents mistakes from happening in the future. I hope the same is done for police incidents.

Most if not department's SWAT aren't a bunch of guys waiting around until needed. They work normal shifts like every other cop in their department but have trained as SWAT and perform those duties when needed. In other words it's not like the things you post would go away if there weren't SWAT teams.

 

Clearly these teams aren’t stand-alone units. The point is that it doesn’t appear to be coincidence that the more prevalent these units are the more they are used, particularly in situations that wouldn’t otherwise warrant them. The evidence I posted is endemic to these particular styles of raids. How many times did we see flash grenades used, “no-knock” raids, and this number of fatal mistakes before these units became en vogue? Almost all of these deaths would have been avoided if warrants were served as they traditionally have been.

 

These are a fee examples of things that went wrong, yet you fail to even acknowledge the times where lives are saved because of these special units. Sometimes when a fellow officer is trapped in a bad situation or a violent person is barricaded in a house with guns, these "swat" type units are completely necessary. Nothing is perfect and mistakes are going to happen. But I can assure you even on warrant services that they announce they are the police.

 

Those are more than a few examples. How many times does the same thing have to happen before they aren’t “isolated incidents”?

 

I also pointed out that they are quite necessary in certain situations, which include your hypothetical example. Out of all the examples available, these raids were justified not because the suspect was known to be heavily armed or barricaded, but because the suspect might possess drugs. The situations that would require a SWAT style team are few and far between, but they are used far more prolifically than that and it should be surprising to no one to see a commensurate increase in fatal mistakes.

Clearly these teams aren’t stand-alone units. The point is that it doesn’t appear to be coincidence that the more prevalent these units are the more they are used, particularly in situations that wouldn’t otherwise warrant them. The evidence I posted is endemic to these particular styles of raids. How many times did we see flash grenades used, “no-knock” raids, and this number of fatal mistakes before these units became en vogue? Almost all of these deaths would have been avoided if warrants were served as they traditionally have been.

 

 

 

Those are more than a few examples. How many times does the same thing have to happen before they aren’t “isolated incidents”?

 

I also pointed out that they are quite necessary in certain situations, which include your hypothetical example. Out of all the examples available, these raids were justified not because the suspect was known to be heavily armed or barricaded, but because the suspect might possess drugs. The situations that would require a SWAT style team are few and far between, but they are used far more prolifically than that and it should be surprising to no one to see a commensurate increase in fatal mistakes.

 

It seems that your issue isn't with the number of SWAT teams really, but more to the extent of which they're used, which I think is a valid criticism. What incidents/situations really require the use of a SWAT team? Is drug possession really a situation that can't be handled just as effectively by regular police? Obviously when dealing with armed or violent perps the use is warranted, but how frequently are they used for other situations that could be handled differently.

A lot of innocents have been killed by military bombs too, but we wont quit bombing.

Clearly these teams aren’t stand-alone units. The point is that it doesn’t appear to be coincidence that the more prevalent these units are the more they are used, particularly in situations that wouldn’t otherwise warrant them. The evidence I posted is endemic to these particular styles of raids. How many times did we see flash grenades used, “no-knock” raids, and this number of fatal mistakes before these units became en vogue? Almost all of these deaths would have been avoided if warrants were served as they traditionally have been.

 

 

 

Those are more than a few examples. How many times does the same thing have to happen before they aren’t “isolated incidents”?

 

I also pointed out that they are quite necessary in certain situations, which include your hypothetical example. Out of all the examples available, these raids were justified not because the suspect was known to be heavily armed or barricaded, but because the suspect might possess drugs. The situations that would require a SWAT style team are few and far between, but they are used far more prolifically than that and it should be surprising to no one to see a commensurate increase in fatal mistakes.

How many officers deaths could have been avoided had SWAT teams been used instead of serving warrants traditionally?

Like I said before, mistakes happen. It is very very unfortunate that innocent people die.

It seems that your issue isn't with the number of SWAT teams really, but more to the extent of which they're used, which I think is a valid criticism. What incidents/situations really require the use of a SWAT team? Is drug possession really a situation that can't be handled just as effectively by regular police? Obviously when dealing with armed or violent perps the use is warranted, but how frequently are they used for other situations that could be handled differently.

 

That's correct. But, it does seem that once these units become available they get used and even expanded. There are a few departments across the country that have now purchased or are considering purchasing tanks. I simply think some healthy skepticism is in order.

 

How many officers deaths could have been avoided had SWAT teams been used instead of serving warrants traditionally?

 

There are any number of tactics that could be used to increase the safety of the police at the expense of the liberty of the citizens. They certainly have a dangerous job and should be respected for doing it, but their tactics should not be beyond reproach. How necessary are these military style raids to the function of the police? I'm not satisfied with "sorry, mistakes happen" when these things go wrong while there is such an alarming trend. This is the essence of the tradeoff between liberty and authority.

That's correct. But, it does seem that once these units become available they get used and even expanded. There are a few departments across the country that have now purchased or are considering purchasing tanks. I simply think some healthy skepticism is in order.

 

 

 

There are any number of tactics that could be used to increase the safety of the police at the expense of the liberty of the citizens. They certainly have a dangerous job and should be respected for doing it, but their tactics should not be beyond reproach. How necessary are these military style raids to the function of the police? I'm not satisfied with "sorry, mistakes happen" when these things go wrong while there is such an alarming trend. This is the essence of the tradeoff between liberty and authority.

What do you think the precentage is of things going wrong versus total number of times SWAT is used?

Dealing with drugs, drug dealers, and murders is a dangerous business. You list 3 incidents spanning 3 years. During that same period 417 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty.

 

A person breaking the law and backed into a corner, regardless of the kind and amount of drugs involved, is dangerous. Correct me, if I am wrong, but when you serve a warrant, especially on a drug dealer or murderer, you are expecting that situation, yes? Violence would most likely be imminent.