Not Palmer's fault.

 

Of course it isn't. Poor lil' Carson Palmer.

Of course it isn't. Poor lil' Carson Palmer.

 

It's Palmer's fault that a late hit tore his ACL on the first play in playoff game 1?

 

It's Palmer's fault that Coles fumbled in the Red Zone first possession, that his receivers had 3 other key drops, and that Shayne Graham can't make a meaningful kick to save his life? Now Palmer didn't play very well that game, but to say that lose was on Palmer is 100% wrong.

All of Vick's intangibles seem to be gone.

 

 

 

He sat out two years in prison. It's not like he was still around the game or could really train. Sure he trained in prison but not like what an NFL player would do out of lock up. Vinny Testeverde was also a polished passer not like Vick. Vick's entire game was athleticism and it was great, but he doesn't have that kind of athleticism anymore from what I've seen. Do you think he's even close to as fast as he used to be?

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said. This will be the year to see if Vick can reclaim some of his mystique. He simply did not have the legs under him to make a difference. Maybe he will come back like Ricky Williams.

 

Theres no way you can base his abilities on last year. He didn't even get into camp until late, and then didn't see much practice time to get ready. Still he got into games, and although didn't look great, didn't look horrible. This will be the year that tells all, and I think if given the chance, is the year we see a decent Mike Vick, not the Mike Vick of old, but still a very good player. As with the Ricky Williams statement, everyone had wrote him off too, but he came out and had another great season or two after everything had shaken down with him, and he is a running back. Running backs deteriorate a lot faster than qbs, so I think Vick still has a good run left in him.

 

You know I like you on here Cats, and you've brought up a lot of good points, but most of the time I feel you seem to over think things, or put too much thought into certain aspects. Bottom line is the guy can play football, and will still be able to play football for another couple of years. I just don't see how you can go from being one of the best in the league, to just being looked at as a has been without that kind of injury. Again, Ricky came back and produced, after a few bumps in the road, and even Jamal Lewis did after he got out of jail. Lewis certainly didn't have the athleticism of Vick.

Of course it isn't. Poor lil' Carson Palmer.

 

I love how contradictory your arguements are.

 

When Palmer had success, it wasn't because of him, but it was the talent around him. When he struggled, without any talent to speak of, you say who cares, good QBs are successful either way. So when he has success, you're unwilling to give him any credit, because of talent, but when the talent goes away, you're willing to heap all the criticism on him. It's either on the QB or it's not, you can't have it both ways.

One guy lead his team to a Super Bowl win and another still hasn't won a playoff game yet. Give me Eli any day.

 

That Eli guy needed his defense to make key interceptions for him, and also a kicker to make game winning field goals. Basically what we talked about yesterday, a quarterback needs help from the other two phases of football in defense, and special teams to have those big moments. Something that Palmer has not had in his career. You can't have that big moment without help from the other two phases of football.

I love how contradictory your arguements are.

 

When Palmer had success, it wasn't because of him, but it was the talent around him. When he struggled, without any talent to speak of, you say who cares, good QBs are successful either way. So when he has success, you're unwilling to give him any credit, because of talent, but when the talent goes away, you're willing to heap all the criticism on him. It's either on the QB or it's not, you can't have it both ways.

 

Elite QB's make everyone better. Carson looked good with good talent and he looked average with less talent around him. That's not contradictory, it's fact. Cry about his WRs if you want but great QBs make due no matter who they're throwing to.

 

Theres no way you can base his abilities on last year. He didn't even get into camp until late, and then didn't see much practice time to get ready. Still he got into games, and although didn't look great, didn't look horrible. This will be the year that tells all, and I think if given the chance, is the year we see a decent Mike Vick, not the Mike Vick of old, but still a very good player. As with the Ricky Williams statement, everyone had wrote him off too, but he came out and had another great season or two after everything had shaken down with him, and he is a running back. Running backs deteriorate a lot faster than qbs, so I think Vick still has a good run left in him.

 

You know I like you on here Cats, and you've brought up a lot of good points, but most of the time I feel you seem to over think things, or put too much thought into certain aspects. Bottom line is the guy can play football, and will still be able to play football for another couple of years. I just don't see how you can go from being one of the best in the league, to just being looked at as a has been without that kind of injury. Again, Ricky came back and produced, after a few bumps in the road, and even Jamal Lewis did after he got out of jail. Lewis certainly didn't have the athleticism of Vick.

 

There's no over thinking to be done here. Vick wasn't the same guy last year. You don't regain sprinter speed after you've lost it. He's 30 years old. He cannot read coverage. Vick is one guy who cannot afford to lose ANY of his athleticism.

 

And if I over think things, then people don't think enough about sports. I think you have to be realistic because we have seen nothing that says Mike Vick is even 70% of what he used to be. Maybe he'll bounce back this year but until he actually proves it on the field most people are going to take this side of the argument rather than yours. You didn't see many NFL teams trying to trade for Vick this off-season. If Vick was that much better that the QBs you mentioned don't you think someone like Buffalo would have went and got him, especially since Gailey is going to run an unconventional offense?

 

Ricky Williams didn't go to prison and Ricky Williams is also a RB. RBs only deteriorate quickly because they get killed running the ball. His suspensions actually helped him out in the long run.

 

No other position in sports is even half as hard as playing NFL QB, IMO. And you wanting a guy who is average at best at the traditional QB aspects of the game, to come in and start when he hasn't proven he is anywhere near as fast as he used to be? Good luck.

 

That Eli guy needed his defense to make key interceptions for him, and also a kicker to make game winning field goals. Basically what we talked about yesterday, a quarterback needs help from the other two phases of football in defense, and special teams to have those big moments. Something that Palmer has not had in his career. You can't have that big moment without help from the other two phases of football.

 

Can we get some cheese with all of this w(h)ine?

Elite QB's make everyone better. Carson looked good with good talent and he looked average with less talent around him. That's not contradictory, it's fact. Cry about his WRs if you want but great QBs make due no matter who they're throwing to.

 

 

Drew Brees was very ordinary, if not downright bad, before he got talent around him. Yet, you say he's elite (and I agree). So Brees gets credit for his success with talent, but Palmer doesn't?

 

And I'm not saying Palmer is elite, because he's not. It's simply a fact that he was amongst the elite QBs in the league before his injuries. That's not whining or making excuses or any of the other childish things you've called it. It's simple fact.

Drew Brees was very ordinary, if not downright bad, before he got talent around him. Yet, you say he's elite (and I agree). So Brees gets credit for his success with talent, but Palmer doesn't?

 

You said Carson was good when he had talent around him.

Now you say he hasn't had enough talent around him.

 

Which is it? I'm contradicting myself? If that isn't laughable coming from you in this argument I don't know what is .

You said Carson was good when he had talent around him.

Now you say he hasn't had enough talent around him.

 

Which is it? I'm contradicting myself? If that isn't laughable coming from you in this argument I don't know what is .

 

This post makes zero sense.

 

Palmer was very good before his injury. You want to say all the credit goes to the talent around him.

 

My point is, then why do we not give the credit for Brees' success to the talent around him?

 

Before he got good talent, he was very ordinary. Without talent around Palmer he's looked ordinary. 99% of all QBs are the same way.

 

I'm not contradicting anything. If you're not going to give someone credit for their success, you sure as heck can't give them the criticism when they don't have success.

This post makes zero sense.

 

Palmer was very good before his injury. You want to say all the credit goes to the talent around him.

 

My point is, then why do we not give Brees credit to the talent around him.

 

Before he got good talent, he was very ordinary. Without talent around Palmer he's looked ordinary. 99% of all QBs are the same way.

 

I'm not contradicting anything. If you're not going to give someone credit for their success, you sure as heck can't give them the criticism when they don't have success.

 

1. The talent when Brees got to New Orleans was not great. Reggie Bush and Duece at RB? A rookie Marques Colston. That sure is elite.

2. I'm not going to give Palmer any credit. He is an average and manageable starting QB in the NFL, and good talent can make him look better than he is. Nothing more and nothing less.

1. The talent when Brees got to New Orleans was not great. Reggie Bush and Duece at RB? A rookie Marques Colston. That sure is elite.

2. I'm not going to give Palmer any credit. He is an average and manageable starting QB in the NFL, and good talent can make him look better than he is. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

You're letting your dislike of the Bengals cloud your judgement man. You can't use different criteria to rate different QBs without being contradictory. If you're going to give one QB credit for his successes with talent around him, then you have to give all QBs the credit. It's really simple logic.

Drew Brees had an excellent fantasy year last season but I still say Patyon Manning is #1.

 

2. Drew Brees

3. Tom Brady

4. Brett Favre

5. Ben Rothlisberger

6. Eli Manning

7. Aaron Rodgers

8. Philip Rivers

9. Matt Ryan

10. Donovan McNabb

11. Carson Palmar

12. Tony Romo

13. Matt Schaub

14. Mark Sanchez

15. Jay Cutler

 

Considering Brees won a Super Bowl (at the expense of Manning nonetheless), I'd say he had an excellent season. Period.

You're letting your dislike of the Bengals cloud your judgement man. You can't use different criteria to rate different QBs without being contradictory. If you're going to give one QB credit for his successes with talent around him, then you have to give all QBs the credit. It's really simple logic.

 

Where did I ever say any of that crap? I try to look at the whole picture for all QBs. Carson is successful when he has talent and not successful when he doesn't have Pro Bowl WRs to play catch with. Elite guys win with whatever and put up good numbers doing it. Carson is not a winner. Winning is not everything when looking at a QB, but I think it's a huge part of it.

 

 

 

There's no over thinking to be done here. Vick wasn't the same guy last year. You don't regain sprinter speed after you've lost it. He's 30 years old. He cannot read coverage. Vick is one guy who cannot afford to lose ANY of his athleticism.

 

And if I over think things, then people don't think enough about sports. I think you have to be realistic because we have seen nothing that says Mike Vick is even 70% of what he used to be. Maybe he'll bounce back this year but until he actually proves it on the field most people are going to take this side of the argument rather than yours. You didn't see many NFL teams trying to trade for Vick this off-season. If Vick was that much better that the QBs you mentioned don't you think someone like Buffalo would have went and got him, especially since Gailey is going to run an unconventional offense?

 

Ricky Williams didn't go to prison and Ricky Williams is also a RB. RBs only deteriorate quickly because they get killed running the ball. His suspensions actually helped him out in the long run.

 

No other position in sports is even half as hard as playing NFL QB, IMO. And you wanting a guy who is average at best at the traditional QB aspects of the game, to come in and start when he hasn't proven he is anywhere near as fast as he used to be? Good luck.

 

We'll see, he still has at least 4-5 seasons to be able to prove something. Vick always had a good arm, even though people never considered him a good passer. Peerless Price and a young drop prone Roddy White were also the best receivers he ever had. His number one target was Algae Crumpler, a guy who did not even hardly see the field once he went to Tennessee. I think it is very short and narrow minded to say just because he didn't show anything last year that he has lost everything. You sit out of doing something two years, then have a month or two to get ready and see how you perform. You get about a year and a half though of related activities and I bet you look a lot better. Again, if Vinny Testeverde can come back and start in this league at 40, Mike Vick can if given the opportunity.

Where did I ever say any of that crap? I try to look at the whole picture for all QBs. Carson is successful when he has talent and not successful when he doesn't have Pro Bowl WRs to play catch with. Elite guys win with whatever and put up good numbers doing it. Carson is not a winner. Winning is not everything when looking at a QB, but I think it's a huge part of it.

 

I guess what I'm having a hard time figuring out is what Brees has every won without a bunch of talent?