^^^Most times men on the cross had their legs broken which would lead to a quicker death. I would think if the Romans wanted the man to suffer longer this would not happen. Jesus legs were left alone but he died after a few hours on the cross. I would think the thiefs legs were broken. Christ has the power to save a person face to face. We no longer have that chance for a face to face, but then Faith comes into play.

 

Paul states "if there was no raising of the dead and Christ was not raised your faith would be futile"...1st Corinthians 15:17

 

When is a person "Saved"? As he first Believes/Repents/Confesses/ Baptized/Holy Spirit enters?

Here are just a few: Romans 3:20-28; Romans 5:18-19; Romans 6:23; Romans 11:6; I Corinthians 4:7; I Corinthians 15:10; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 2:21; Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2 Timothy 1:9.

 

Those are great passages, because they teach salvation cannot be earned. Grace saves us, and we do nothing to earn that.

 

But the Romans 3 passage you referenced specifically says that "righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe." Belief comes first, then the righteousness of God.

 

Belief, confession, repentance, & baptism are not good works. They are how we respond to God's free offer of grace. And in the Acts 2 passage, with which Alabama Larry began this thread, Peter tells the crowd that the Holy Spirit will indwell them upon their repentance & baptism; not the other way around. The Spirit is promised to those who choose to commit to Christ.

 

Elsewhere, Peter says that God wants all people to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Obviously, that will not happen. Jesus himself said as much when he talked about how not everyone who calls on him will be saved. It is contingent on the part of people to individually respond to God's free offer of grace. We do not earn that grace, I agree. But we must receive it.

 

In a similar way, when Jesus healed people, he often required that they do something tangible to receive that healing (take up your mat & walk, go wash in the pool of Siloam, stretch out your hand, etc. etc.). Belief, confession, repentance, & baptism comprise similar expressions of faith.

 

To say that there is nothing within us that even desires to be saved is inaccurate & contradicts the Acts 2 passage.

One of my favorite jokes revolves around this scripture, no pun intended:

 

 

A woman went into her kitchen to find a burglar loaded down with a bunch of stuff he was stealing from her kitchen. Not having any kind of weapon to scare him off, she raised her hand and said "Acts 2:38," and proceeded to quote scripture.

The burglar froze in place and didn't move. The woman called 911, the police arrived and were amazed to find the burglar still frozen where he stood.

"What did you say to him that kept him from moving?" they asked the woman.

She told them that she had simply said Acts 2:38 and quoted scripture.

The police chuckled and escorted the burglar out to the patrol car. "Why did the woman's quoting scripture scare you so much?" they asked. "Scripture?" said the burglar, "I thought she said she had an ax and two 38's!"

Those are great passages, because they teach salvation cannot be earned. Grace saves us, and we do nothing to earn that.

 

But the Romans 3 passage you referenced specifically says that "righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe." Belief comes first, then the righteousness of God.

 

Belief, confession, repentance, & baptism are not good works. They are how we respond to God's free offer of grace. And in the Acts 2 passage, with which Alabama Larry began this thread, Peter tells the crowd that the Holy Spirit will indwell them upon their repentance & baptism; not the other way around. The Spirit is promised to those who choose to commit to Christ.

 

Elsewhere, Peter says that God wants all people to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Obviously, that will not happen. Jesus himself said as much when he talked about how not everyone who calls on him will be saved. It is contingent on the part of people to individually respond to God's free offer of grace. We do not earn that grace, I agree. But we must receive it.

 

In a similar way, when Jesus healed people, he often required that they do something tangible to receive that healing (take up your mat & walk, go wash in the pool of Siloam, stretch out your hand, etc. etc.). Belief, confession, repentance, & baptism comprise similar expressions of faith.

 

To say that there is nothing within us that even desires to be saved is inaccurate & contradicts the Acts 2 passage.

 

First, you would not even have the ability to repent or believe unless the Holy Spirit has drawn you to Him. Thus, All of God. Baptism is only a work if you believe it has a part in saving you. Otherwise, it is a picture or symbol of your faith and obedience to His commandment to be baptized.

First, you would not even have the ability to repent or believe unless the Holy Spirit has drawn you to Him. Thus, All of God. Baptism is only a work if you believe it has a part in saving you. Otherwise, it is a picture or symbol of your faith and obedience to His commandment to be baptized.

 

That's what Scripture I'm wanting from you...one (or more) that says the Holy Spirit gives people desire to come to Christ; because Acts 2 shows it the other way around. The Holy Spirit comes when a person gives their life to Christ; not before.

 

In essence, you are saying that a person has no free will in regards to their salvation. It's a matter of whether or not the Holy Spirit draws you to God. Correct?

That's what Scripture I'm wanting from you...one (or more) that says the Holy Spirit gives people desire to come to Christ; because Acts 2 shows it the other way around. The Holy Spirit comes when a person gives their life to Christ; not before.

 

In essence, you are saying that a person has no free will in regards to their salvation. It's a matter of whether or not the Holy Spirit draws you to God. Correct?

 

If a person has a desire to be saved then they have been drawn by the Holy Spirit. They within themselves did not conjure up the desire. No unregenerate man desires to be saved or can even "work" up the desire to be saved. Salvation is a free gift from God and is ALL of God so no man can boast that he had anything to do with it. God gets all the glory. Man uses his own will to come to Christ but that is only after the Holy Spirit has quickened him in that regard.

If a person has a desire to be saved then they have been drawn by the Holy Spirit. They within themselves did not conjure up the desire. No unregenerate man desires to be saved or can even "work" up the desire to be saved. Salvation is a free gift from God and is ALL of God so no man can boast that he had anything to do with it. God gets all the glory. Man uses his own will to come to Christ but that is only after the Holy Spirit has quickened him in that regard.

 

And again I ask for Scripture that says the Holy Spirit does what you say, because Acts 2 says the Holy Spirit doesn't come until the person comes to Christ.

And again I ask for Scripture that says the Holy Spirit does what you say, because Acts 2 says the Holy Spirit doesn't come until the person comes to Christ.

 

I gave you a plethora of scriptures in a previous post. However, here are a few more that mention that saving grace is of God and God alone and that without the Spirits wooing we would not even be able to repent: Luke 8:5-8; (You will not "have ears to hear" unless the Holy Spirit gives that ability to you) Luke 5:5;(apart from the work of the Holy Spirit we are helpless to do anything) Phillipians 1:6; (Showing that once the Holy Spirit has drawn us to Christ He will keep us. We did nothing to earn salvation, we can do nothing to lose it) and John 6:45. (Every man that has been led of the Holy Spirit will come unto me ---irresistable grace) All of these illustrate the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and ultimately our salvation. Now, I am sure you will disagree but the bible plainly teaches this principle throughout.

Funny Nobody has quoted John 20: 19-23 Why is that ? http://www.beginningcatholic.com/sacrament-of-reconciliation.html

Funny Nobody has quoted John 20: 19-23 Why is that ? http://www.beginningcatholic.com/sacrament-of-reconciliation.html

 

Probably because the Greek word receive should have been translated take. It fits better with the context. I do not have the capabilities of spelling the greek word on here because I do not have the software that will allow me to do so. But the greek word used in this text has the following meaning and it fits better translated as take. Thus what I have suggested before makes complete sense even based on this scripture as well.

 

verb - a word that describes an action "take" "carry" "accept" "receive" "bring"

 

2nd person something being done by the listener - pronoun "you take" or "take with you - you carry" "you accept" "you receive"

 

pleural - indicates more than one person or thing is involved (you pleural)

 

active - a form of a verb showing that the subject is the agent that performs the action expressed in the verb (the disciples were being commanded to take/receive). This is the opposite of passive which would imply something was being done to the disciples and not by the disciples.

 

aorist - a set of verb forms that indicate that the action in the verb has been completed (unless combined with the imperative.) Here it indicates that the command has taken place.

 

imperative -a form of a verb that indicates a command or a strong request. (It is only used in the present and the aorist tense in the new testament. The imperative cannot indicate time. Ref Mounce) eg go and see your mother and take a box of chocolates - {it may be quite some time before mother gets her chocolates}

 

If I say to somebody "when you go to see your mother take some flowers", it does not mean that they have taken the flowers to their mother at the time I said "take the flowers". Obviously, I mean at some time in the future, "take some flowers". If I said "Whenever you go to your mother, you should take some flowers" I may be referring to the past present or future.

 

Jesus said "As the father has sent me, I am sending you.........take the Holy Spirit .......if you forgive anybody their sins, they are forgiven." Jesus was saying "I AM SENDING YOU TO (JERUSALEM, SAMARIA AND TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH) TAKE THE HOLY SPIRIT (WHICH I AM ABOUT TO GIVE YOU) (WITH YOU OR TO THEM) AND WHOEVER YOU FORGIVE WILL BE FORGIVEN."

Probably because the Greek word receive should have been translated take. It fits better with the context. I do not have the capabilities of spelling the greek word on here because I do not have the software that will allow me to do so. But the greek word used in this text has the following meaning and it fits better translated as take. Thus what I have suggested before makes complete sense even based on this scripture as well.

 

verb - a word that describes an action "take" "carry" "accept" "receive" "bring"

 

2nd person something being done by the listener - pronoun "you take" or "take with you - you carry" "you accept" "you receive"

 

pleural - indicates more than one person or thing is involved (you pleural)

 

active - a form of a verb showing that the subject is the agent that performs the action expressed in the verb (the disciples were being commanded to take/receive). This is the opposite of passive which would imply something was being done to the disciples and not by the disciples.

 

aorist - a set of verb forms that indicate that the action in the verb has been completed (unless combined with the imperative.) Here it indicates that the command has taken place.

 

imperative -a form of a verb that indicates a command or a strong request. (It is only used in the present and the aorist tense in the new testament. The imperative cannot indicate time. Ref Mounce) eg go and see your mother and take a box of chocolates - {it may be quite some time before mother gets her chocolates}

 

If I say to somebody "when you go to see your mother take some flowers", it does not mean that they have taken the flowers to their mother at the time I said "take the flowers". Obviously, I mean at some time in the future, "take some flowers". If I said "Whenever you go to your mother, you should take some flowers" I may be referring to the past present or future.

 

Jesus said "As the father has sent me, I am sending you.........take the Holy Spirit .......if you forgive anybody their sins, they are forgiven." Jesus was saying "I AM SENDING YOU TO (JERUSALEM, SAMARIA AND TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH) TAKE THE HOLY SPIRIT (WHICH I AM ABOUT TO GIVE YOU) (WITH YOU OR TO THEM) AND WHOEVER YOU FORGIVE WILL BE FORGIVEN."

Are you a Theologian or a Greek semanticist ?

Are you a Theologian or a Greek semanticist ?

 

HA! Neither. I simply enjoy studying God's Word. I grew up under some wonderful pastors and I am now married to a pastor. God has blessed our family. I also attended Bible school for a time.

Edited May 27, 201016 yr by IM4THEHOUNDS
hit the post button too soon.

Spindoc, read the joke to Mama and she got it and it was really good. I'll use it. Hounds, enjoying your comments, and everyone also.

HA! Neither. I simply enjoy studying God's Word. I grew up under some wonderful pastors and I am now married to a pastor. God has blessed our family. I also attended Bible school for a time.

 

I probably should have said . . . "No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night" lol

1. The New Covenant began with the resurrection of Christ, because w/o the resurrection, grace would not be available.

 

2. Jesus died before the thieves, because when they came to break his legs, they found him already to be dead.

 

So, the New Covenant began prior to the Holy Spirit's arrival?

 

Not arguing, just asking.