At Church Sunday and a person was getting baptized. The preacher emersed him and said "Baptism is for the Forgiveness of your Sins" I wondered if I heard him right and emailed him today and he responded with the verse Acts 2:38.

 

I told him..."I thought Jesus was the sin forgiver not the water."

 

Peter told the crowd "Repent and be Baptized everyone of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your Sins, and you will recieve the Holy Spirit."

 

I think I might have seen this before on here, but I really love the discussions we have and realize we have new people every day.

What you mention is usually the position of the Church of Christ. They believe that baptism saves. They will say that you have to trust Jesus but unless you are baptized you are not going to heaven. This is the other extreme of Hardshellism (Some think Calvinism is hardshell ---but it really is not) the scenario you describe is the purest form of Armenianism (Free Will and salvation is by works of man by his choice alone.) Either extreme is not biblical. There is a balance found in Scripture that describes a Sovereign God tempered with Man's Responsibility.

We had a sermon over Acts and Salvation this past Sunday, too.

 

It seems the early church of act looked for 4 things for salvation. Belief that Jesus was the Son of God, confessing that He is your Lord and Savior, Repenting of your sinful life and Baptism. Studying what the Acts Church did, it seems obvious that these are the 4 things that need to be done for salvation.

Salvation is a Free Gift . . . there is NOTHING we can do to earn it. Jesus paid it all. The Holy Spirit draws the sinner, convicts them and brings them to the point of realizing that they can do nothing in themselves to rid themselves of the tremendous sin debt they carry. He brings about repentance in the sinner and faith in Christ that His shed blood is the only payment suitable for our sins. His death on the cross was our redemption or payment for our sins. Baptism is simply a picture of the gospel and a public acknowledgement of our turning from sin and trusting in Christ. While baptism is a commandment in scripture it is not necessary for salvation. (i.e. Thief on the cross ) A person is baptized into a local new testament assembly and this act makes them a member of that local assembly. It publicly professes our faith in Christ and what He has done for us. The act of baptism itself has no saving or redemptive power. If it did, it would be salvation by our works and not by grace. Salvation is by grace alone. See Ephesians 2:8-9.

I heard this once...A person wears their wedding band as a showing of their relationship with their mate. If they take off/lose the ring/can't wear due to job or they not married? Of course not, the ring is a symbol. Baptism is a symbol of a person's relationship with Jesus. But Jesus commanded this act and I think if a person doesn't accept this, well its wrong. Forgiveness of Sins and water is hardly mentioned with each other

My personal belief is that the water is just a symbol of being baptist in the holy spirit, but I don't have a bit of trouble with people who believe otherwise. I guess the most important thing is the accpetance of Jesus and the repentance of sins, no matter the take on baptism.

Salvation is a Free Gift . . . there is NOTHING we can do to earn it. Jesus paid it all. The Holy Spirit draws the sinner, convicts them and brings them to the point of realizing that they can do nothing in themselves to rid themselves of the tremendous sin debt they carry. He brings about repentance in the sinner and faith in Christ that His shed blood is the only payment suitable for our sins. His death on the cross was our redemption or payment for our sins. Baptism is simply a picture of the gospel and a public acknowledgement of our turning from sin and trusting in Christ. While baptism is a commandment in scripture it is not necessary for salvation. (i.e. Thief on the cross ) A person is baptized into a local new testament assembly and this act makes them a member of that local assembly. It publicly professes our faith in Christ and what He has done for us. The act of baptism itself has no saving or redemptive power. If it did, it would be salvation by our works and not by grace. Salvation is by grace alone. See Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

* Salvation is free, and we do nothing to earn it. But we have to receive it, just as we have to open any other gift we receive for a birthday or Christmas. I believe you're making the mistake of equating baptism with a "good work."

 

* The thief on the cross was living under the Old Covenant, and not the New.

 

* Baptism, when done with "the pledge of a good conscience toward God" is a part of being saved (see 1 Peter 3:21 for the exact wording that says "baptism now saves you also"). Baptism, if not accompanied w/ genuine belief, confession, & repentance is just getting in some water--it's meaningless.

 

* Salvation is by grace alone, as you referenced from Ephesians 2. It is a free gift, as you mentioned. But as I said earlier, it is a gift. And for a gift to be given, the recipient must accept it. Baptism is part of the process by which salvation is received.

* Salvation is free, and we do nothing to earn it. But we have to receive it, just as we have to open any other gift we receive for a birthday or Christmas. I believe you're making the mistake of equating baptism with a "good work."

 

* The thief on the cross was living under the Old Covenant, and not the New.

 

* Baptism, when done with "the pledge of a good conscience toward God" is a part of being saved (see 1 Peter 3:21 for the exact wording that says "baptism now saves you also"). Baptism, if not accompanied w/ genuine belief, confession, & repentance is just getting in some water--it's meaningless.

 

* Salvation is by grace alone, as you referenced from Ephesians 2. It is a free gift, as you mentioned. But as I said earlier, it is a gift. And for a gift to be given, the recipient must accept it. Baptism is part of the process by which salvation is received.

In order for Salvation to be able to be received the Holy Spirit must quicken the unregenerate heart and make it willing. Before the Holy Spirit quickens us we are as dead men with no ability within ourselves to receive this gift. So, it is nothing within us that makes us able to even desire to be saved and receive this gift apart from the Holy Spirits working . . . thus God receives all the glory because apart from His grace we cannot even receive salvation.

In order for Salvation to be able to be received the Holy Spirit must quicken the unregenerate heart and make it willing. Before the Holy Spirit quickens us we are as dead men with no ability within ourselves to receive this gift. So, it is nothing within us that makes us able to even desire to be saved and receive this gift apart from the Holy Spirits working . . . thus God receives all the glory because apart from His grace we cannot even receive salvation.

 

Scriptural support?

In order for Salvation to be able to be received the Holy Spirit must quicken the unregenerate heart and make it willing. Before the Holy Spirit quickens us we are as dead men with no ability within ourselves to receive this gift. So, it is nothing within us that makes us able to even desire to be saved and receive this gift apart from the Holy Spirits working . . . thus God receives all the glory because apart from His grace we cannot even receive salvation.

 

Scriptural support?

I'm guessing Romans, and that IM4THEHOUNDS is a Calvinist, but I could be wrong.

I'm guessing Romans, and that IM4THEHOUNDS is a Calvinist, but I could be wrong.

 

Not a Calvinist, but I do believe in the Doctrines of Grace as taught in the Bible. Calvin was simply a man and followers of his developed a system to organize this biblical doctrine. So, I am a follower of Christ, not Calvin.

Scriptural support?

 

Here are just a few: Romans 3:20-28; Romans 5:18-19; Romans 6:23; Romans 11:6; I Corinthians 4:7; I Corinthians 15:10; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 2:21; Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2 Timothy 1:9.

* The thief on the cross was living under the Old Covenant, and not the New.

 

This is something I've considered before. It's an interesting thought.

 

I suppose there are two primary questions...

 

1. When did the New Covenant begin? Upon Jesus' death? resurrection? Or upon the arrival of the Holy Spirit?

 

2. On the cross, did Jesus die before the thieves?

 

If the New Covenant did not begin upon His death, then the thief was under the Old Covenant, right? And, if the thieves died prior to Jesus they would have been under the Old Covenant?

 

I remember a story a pastor read once. It one author's speculation of the thief arriving in heaven after his death. He was the first of Jesus' church to arrive there.

 

Its not a faith-changing idea...there are more important issues to tackle and get right. But, it is an interesting question to me.

This is something I've considered before. It's an interesting thought.

 

I suppose there are two primary questions...

 

1. When did the New Covenant begin? Upon Jesus' death? resurrection? Or upon the arrival of the Holy Spirit?

 

2. On the cross, did Jesus die before the thieves?

 

If the New Covenant did not begin upon His death, then the thief was under the Old Covenant, right? And, if the thieves died prior to Jesus they would have been under the Old Covenant?

 

I remember a story a pastor read once. It one author's speculation of the thief arriving in heaven after his death. He was the first of Jesus' church to arrive there.

 

Its not a faith-changing idea...there are more important issues to tackle and get right. But, it is an interesting question to me.

 

1. The New Covenant began with the resurrection of Christ, because w/o the resurrection, grace would not be available.

 

2. Jesus died before the thieves, because when they came to break his legs, they found him already to be dead.