I gave you a plethora of scriptures in a previous post. However, here are a few more that mention that saving grace is of God and God alone and that without the Spirits wooing we would not even be able to repent: Luke 8:5-8; (You will not "have ears to hear" unless the Holy Spirit gives that ability to you) Luke 5:5;(apart from the work of the Holy Spirit we are helpless to do anything) Phillipians 1:6; (Showing that once the Holy Spirit has drawn us to Christ He will keep us. We did nothing to earn salvation, we can do nothing to lose it) and John 6:45. (Every man that has been led of the Holy Spirit will come unto me ---irresistable grace) All of these illustrate the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and ultimately our salvation. Now, I am sure you will disagree but the bible plainly teaches this principle throughout.

 

Not one of those Scriptures described what you have asserted--that the Holy Spirit must draw a person to be saved. Where does the Bible say that "ears that hear" comes from the Holy Spirit? Luke 5:5 has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It simply says that Peter let down the nets because Jesus said so.

 

You have yet to point out a single Scripture that says that humans are not capable of desiring to be saved.

 

Again, I fully agree that grace saves. Human beings do not do anything to earn salvation from God. But human beings who want that salvation must individually respond to it. That's why Acts 2 says those who accepted the message were baptized & about three thousand were added to their number that day. "Those who accepted the message" being the key phrase. They had to accept what the Holy Spirit had spoken through Peter.

 

And again I point to 2 Peter 3:9, where Peter talks about God "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." With that verse in mind, I ask this: If God wants everyone to come to repentance, and if the Holy Spirit has to do everything to save someone (which is what you assert), then won't everyone be saved in the end?

 

I can point you to Scriptures that teach that if you believe you will be saved (Acts 16:31). I can point you to verses that say confession of faith in Christ saves (Romans 10: 9-10). I can point you to verses that tell us that repentance leads to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10). I can point you to verses that say baptism saves (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21). And Alabama Larry referenced for us Acts 2, which says that the Holy Spirit comes into a person's life after each of those four steps has been taken. That doesn't mean we've earned anything. It means we have received it, because that's what we've chosen to do.

Edited May 27, 201016 yr by Randy Parker
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So, the New Covenant began prior to the Holy Spirit's arrival?

 

Not arguing, just asking.

 

That's what I believe. Jesus had to die & be raised again for the New Covenant to take effect. There's no verse that says "The New Covenant thus began here," so please understand that. But the New Covenant is based on grace, not law, and grace didn't come into play until Jesus was resurrected. The Holy Spirit's arrival was a sign that the New Covenant era had began.

 

Some would argue that the New Covenant began after Jesus ascended back into heaven, and I don't really refute that. But I do believe it started before the Holy Spirit came.

That's what I believe. Jesus had to die & be raised again for the New Covenant to take effect. There's no verse that says "The New Covenant thus began here," so please understand that. But the New Covenant is based on grace, not law, and grace didn't come into play until Jesus was resurrected. The Holy Spirit's arrival was a sign that the New Covenant era had began.

 

Some would argue that the New Covenant began after Jesus ascended back into heaven, and I don't really refute that. But I do believe it started before the Holy Spirit came.

 

Like I said, I'm not arguing. Just interested in other's opinions. I've noticed as well that there's no verse anywhere that says it begins here, thus the question. All things that we consider foundations of the new covenant, Jesus' death, burial, resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirt happened at different times. The lapse between the resurrection, the ascension and then the Spirit's arrival is interesting.

 

But, I'm not disagreeing with what you say.

Like I said, I'm not arguing. Just interested in other's opinions. I've noticed as well that there's no verse anywhere that says it begins here, thus the question. All things that we consider foundations of the new covenant, Jesus' death, burial, resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirt happened at different times. The lapse between the resurrection, the ascension and then the Spirit's arrival is interesting.

 

But, I'm not disagreeing with what you say.

 

Oh, I wasn't attempting to be argumentative, so I apologize if I came across that way.

 

The primary reason I believe the New Covenant began @ the empty tomb is that the work Jesus had come to do was finished. He had to be able to fulfill the O.T. Law--something no one else was capable of doing. And by fulfilling that law to perfection, he thus became a perfect sacrifice when he died. And in resurrecting, he defeated sin & death once and for all.

 

Acts 2, the reason this thread started, is such a huge chapter in the Bible, because it records the first conversions to Christianity. The events of the chapter took place on the Day of Pentecost, which was nearly 2 months after Jesus had been crucified. So those foundational events you referred to took place over about a two month period.

Not one of those Scriptures described what you have asserted--that the Holy Spirit must draw a person to be saved. Where does the Bible say that "ears that hear" comes from the Holy Spirit? Luke 5:5 has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It simply says that Peter let down the nets because Jesus said so.

 

You have yet to point out a single Scripture that says that humans are not capable of desiring to be saved.

 

Again, I fully agree that grace saves. Human beings do not do anything to earn salvation from God. But human beings who want that salvation must individually respond to it. That's why Acts 2 says those who accepted the message were baptized & about three thousand were added to their number that day. "Those who accepted the message" being the key phrase. They had to accept what the Holy Spirit had spoken through Peter.

 

And again I point to 2 Peter 3:9, where Peter talks about God "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." With that verse in mind, I ask this: If God wants everyone to come to repentance, and if the Holy Spirit has to do everything to save someone (which is what you assert), then won't everyone be saved in the end?

 

I can point you to Scriptures that teach that if you believe you will be saved (Acts 16:31). I can point you to verses that say confession of faith in Christ saves (Romans 10: 9-10). I can point you to verses that tell us that repentance leads to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10). I can point you to verses that say baptism saves (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21). And Alabama Larry referenced for us Acts 2, which says that the Holy Spirit comes into a person's life after each of those four steps has been taken. That doesn't mean we've earned anything. It means we have received it, because that's what we've chosen to do.

 

No. You simply don't believe these point to the Holy Spirit. We just will have to agree to disagree on this one. Unless the Holy Spirit draws a person to Christ we, within ourselves will never have the desire nor the ability to do so.

No. You simply don't believe these point to the Holy Spirit. We just will have to agree to disagree on this one. Unless the Holy Spirit draws a person to Christ we, within ourselves will never have the desire nor the ability to do so.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Salvation is a Free Gift . . . there is NOTHING we can do to earn it. Jesus paid it all. The Holy Spirit draws the sinner, convicts them and brings them to the point of realizing that they can do nothing in themselves to rid themselves of the tremendous sin debt they carry. He brings about repentance in the sinner and faith in Christ that His shed blood is the only payment suitable for our sins. His death on the cross was our redemption or payment for our sins. Baptism is simply a picture of the gospel and a public acknowledgement of our turning from sin and trusting in Christ. While baptism is a commandment in scripture it is not necessary for salvation. (i.e. Thief on the cross ) A person is baptized into a local new testament assembly and this act makes them a member of that local assembly. It publicly professes our faith in Christ and what He has done for us. The act of baptism itself has no saving or redemptive power. If it did, it would be salvation by our works and not by grace. Salvation is by grace alone. See Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

I will agree with this to a point. If I get a gift and it is nice and wrapped up and I NEVER EVER take the wrapping off and open the present, did I receive the gift to use it?

 

There is something we have to do to receive the gift and that is to ACCEPT the gift.

 

If there is nothing we have to do, than ALL are saved whether we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior or not.

This is something I've considered before. It's an interesting thought.

 

I suppose there are two primary questions...

 

1. When did the New Covenant begin? Upon Jesus' death? resurrection? Or upon the arrival of the Holy Spirit?

 

2. On the cross, did Jesus die before the thieves?

 

If the New Covenant did not begin upon His death, then the thief was under the Old Covenant, right? And, if the thieves died prior to Jesus they would have been under the Old Covenant?

 

I remember a story a pastor read once. It one author's speculation of the thief arriving in heaven after his death. He was the first of Jesus' church to arrive there.

 

Its not a faith-changing idea...there are more important issues to tackle and get right. But, it is an interesting question to me.

 

Wow, I was considering a thread asking the EXACT SAME QUESTION you posted in #1. Great minds must think alike.

I will agree with this to a point. If I get a gift and it is nice and wrapped up and I NEVER EVER take the wrapping off and open the present, did I receive the gift to use it?

 

There is something we have to do to receive the gift and that is to ACCEPT the gift.

 

If there is nothing we have to do, than ALL are saved whether we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior or not.

 

I do not think you are understanding what I am saying . . . The Holy Spirit draws us to Him . . . giving us the desire to repent and accept the gift of salvation. This is all of God. The unregenerate man has no desire or ability within himself to accept this gift. However, when the Spirit woos it is irresistable and we can do nothing but come to Christ and accept this precious gift. But this hasn't been worked up within us by our own doing . . . it is of God. Thus it is wholly of God --- His free gift and not of man lest we boast and take His glory away.

I do not think you are understanding what I am saying . . . The Holy Spirit draws us to Him . . . giving us the desire to repent and accept the gift of salvation. This is all of God. The unregenerate man has no desire or ability within himself to accept this gift. However, when the Spirit woos it is irresistable and we can do nothing but come to Christ and accept this precious gift. But this hasn't been worked up within us by our own doing . . . it is of God. Thus it is wholly of God --- His free gift and not of man lest we boast and take His glory away.

There is Scripture that indicates that God calls people. But I am not sure that the Spriti is irrestible. Please support with Scripture. Like to explore that more.

There is Scripture that indicates that God calls people. But I am not sure that the Spriti is irrestible. Please support with Scripture. Like to explore that more.

 

John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;"

 

John 5:21, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

 

John 10:16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

 

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

 

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

 

Ephesians 1:19-20, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

 

1 Corinthians 4:7, "For who maketh thee to differ from another?".

 

The following quote sums up the precept of this doctrine. We are willing because the Spirit makes us willing. It is nothing within ourselves.

 

"There may be several things which may help to make the life fair in the eyes of men; but nothing will make it amiable in the eyes of God, unless the heart be changed and renewed. All the medicines which can be applied, without the sanctifying work of the Spirit, though they may cover, they can never cure the corruption and diseases of the soul."

George Swinnock

Hounds how do you respond to the thousands who heard the message directly from Jesus' mouth and did not answer His call? Or the disciples/apostles that were there for his teaching and witnessed the miracles and yet did not answer His call?

Hounds how do you respond to the thousands who heard the message directly from Jesus' mouth and did not answer His call? Or the disciples/apostles that were there for his teaching and witnessed the miracles and yet did not answer His call?

 

LBBC the Bible teaches that there is a general call which goes out to ALL men. However, thre is an effectual call that goes out to the elect. It is irresistable and cannot be denied. Read John 10:26-30. God's word is the final authority.

Ladies, as we all know the Disciples were afraid. Untill Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus told Mary to go find them and tell them what he had told them came true, and then even Thoamsa didn't believe that he had risen. I have said many times about the unFaithful disciples and have gotten Blasted for getting on them for the way they acted.

 

Hounds your last comment should be in the John Calvin thread too.

 

We have decided that the Church has made a mistake in understanding Acts 2:38 and will not be going back there. Jesus saves us from our sins. The water shows people our belief in Jesus and a Disciple we have become.

LBBC the Bible teaches that there is a general call which goes out to ALL men. However, thre is an effectual call that goes out to the elect. It is irresistable and cannot be denied. Read John 10:26-30. God's word is the final authority.

 

John 10:26-30 (New International Version)

 

26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."