How is this honoring God? What has changed for the worse? There is still religious freedom and more equality today than when the document was written.

IMO opinion this honors God by establishing an earthly government committed to granting people the opportunity to freely express their religious beliefs… good, bad or otherwise… exactly how God intended it. Soviet Russia, China, North Korea, etc. were/are not known for such liberties.

 

It could be reasonably argued that aborted children are not granted the unalienable rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

I personally believe our current system of welfare, entitlements and oppressive taxation is placing severe demands upon our liberty and pursuit of happiness. Anyone that disagrees with this either is not earning enough to be taxed heavily or came about their wealth through mere good fortune. It hurts to work so hard and hand over half of it to government… especially when so much of it is squandered on wasteful purposes.

I would be interested in hearing that, why it honors God, and how countries with similar legal systems don't honor God.

I was speaking in terms of our foundation principles and the fact they have Biblical roots. Just one more early American acknowledgement of God in our founding.

A lot of countries have liberty. Some even have anarchy. How does it honor God to have a liberal country?

It honors God by permitting our individual citizens the open freedom to choose and act as they believe they are compelled by their Creator, as opposed to countries that have totally abandoned, oppressed or suppressed religion.

Then what has deteriorated that you can no longer say this country honors God but cite donations to Haiti as evidence of its honoring God?

Increased abortions leading directly to the devaluing of human life; the expolsion of pornography and devaluing of women, the sanctity of marriage; the removal of prayer in school, banning the presentation of creation science as an intellectual consideration and many more issues under the banner of the separation of church and state that IMO fall outside the original intent of that guideline.

 

The donations to Haiti referenced were made by individual Americans out of charitable hearts... not enforced taxation.

When has that not been the case?

When we weren’t taxed well into the double digits, when we weren’t funding a government nanny state with apron strings to over a quarter of our population, when we weren’t contemplating government management of another 17% of our economy, when we weren’t saddled with tens of trillions of dollars of debt to foreign powers and proposing more debt on top of it.

Welfare and taxation are sinful? WOW

 

If you live under Christian principals, you know that everything is God's anyway so it doesn't matter how much the government taxes someone, they are just taking God's money and through welfare are giving God's money to the poor. Seems very Christian to me.

 

There is nothing Christian about the freedom to pursue individual wealth.

 

Christian principals have nothing to do with climbing any kind of worldly ladder it is about putting others BEFORE ourselves in all that we do, whether they deserve it or not.

 

Many of our laws came out of the Enlightenment period and from Hammurabi, as much as from Moses.

 

What does the Sanctity of Marriage mean?

 

Just for spite, I am sitting in my school and just prayed - not really, but nobody keeps me or any student any where from praying in school. You speak about liberty to practice religion above and then you assail the fact that non-Christians were at one time FORCED to listen to a Christian prayer, but now are not. Which is it liberty or forced religion that you want?

 

I think the teaching of the world being created in 7 days is sinful and anti-intellectual, which to me is anti-God. God gave us a brain and intelligence to use not so that we would be tricked by things He did during creation to trick us into thinking the world was older.

 

I think a Nanny state is very God-like. Especially if you consider God to be like a loving parent, "Abba" comes to mind.

Ace, you continually attribute god-like qualities to our government. You equate the power of government to tax and redistribute wealth to Christian virtues.

 

They are not one and the same.

 

Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

 

I submit that Caesar has grown too demanding, too bloated, government is not our God. The American government was founded to be our subject... not our master.

IMO opinion this honors God by establishing an earthly government committed to granting people the opportunity to freely express their religious beliefs… good, bad or otherwise… exactly how God intended it. Soviet Russia, China, North Korea, etc. were/are not known for such liberties.

 

It could be reasonably argued that aborted children are not granted the unalienable rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

I personally believe our current system of welfare, entitlements and oppressive taxation is placing severe demands upon our liberty and pursuit of happiness. Anyone that disagrees with this either is not earning enough to be taxed heavily or came about their wealth through mere good fortune. It hurts to work so hard and hand over half of it to government… especially when so much of it is squandered on wasteful purposes.

I was speaking in terms of our foundation principles and the fact they have Biblical roots. Just one more early American acknowledgement of God in our founding.

It honors God by permitting our individual citizens the open freedom to choose and act as they believe they are compelled by their Creator, as opposed to countries that have totally abandoned, oppressed or suppressed religion.

Increased abortions leading directly to the devaluing of human life; the expolsion of pornography and devaluing of women, the sanctity of marriage; the removal of prayer in school, banning the presentation of creation science as an intellectual consideration and many more issues under the banner of the separation of church and state that IMO fall outside the original intent of that guideline.

 

The donations to Haiti referenced were made by individual Americans out of charitable hearts... not enforced taxation.

When we weren’t taxed well into the double digits, when we weren’t funding a government nanny state with apron strings to over a quarter of our population, when we weren’t contemplating government management of another 17% of our economy, when we weren’t saddled with tens of trillions of dollars of debt to foreign powers and proposing more debt on top of it.

 

There is more in here than I can coherently respond to right now, so I'll synthesize my responses as simply as I can.

 

What reason do you have to believe that God favors certain states specifically due to their mode of government? If it is the founding documents of this country that garner it favor, why have countries who have modeled their governments after the US's not found such favor? What of countries that have or had explicitly Christian foundations?

 

For every moral qualm you can raise against modern society, one can raise equally as many for the past, including the founding documents, notably slavery and the subjection of women. I don't find your relativist pardoning of those scourges convincing, especially in the context of what God would want, as those principles would be absolute.

 

You claim that allowing individuals to pursue liberty is favorable, but the results of such liberty is unfavorable because the government cannot teach a particular religion, has failed to enforce your conception of morality more stringently, or otherwise that people make choices you find unacceptable. I find that incongruent.

 

Not only does the Constitution call for taxation and the regulation of commerce, there has been a progressive tax structure in this country since the end of the Civil War, and the highest marginal tax rate was nearly double what it is now throughout the 20th century, even surpassing 90% for nearly two decades (including the good ol' days of the 1950s, which I would also argue was a far more restrictive time for corporations). I find it curious that for you it is only now that the rich are being soaked and it is thus that the country is not favorable in the eyes of God.

While those things were indeed active in the culture of the day, the founding documents made it possible for the evil of slavery to be eliminated, and for females of the "mankind" to share in the civic right to vote... "...all men (and women) are created equal..."

 

You can sugar coat it all you want, but "(and women)" was not in there and most agree wasn't even implied. Bottom line...our founding fathers were not honoring God in setting up a government that discriminated against women and didn't consider blacks fully equal to whites.

You can sugar coat it all you want, but "(and women)" was not in there and most agree wasn't even implied. Bottom line...our founding fathers were not honoring God in setting up a government that discriminated against women and didn't consider blacks fully equal to whites.

I am certainly aware that the founders were divided into two camps on the issue of slavery. There was great debate and contention over the issue at the founding... there was no way to resolve it and unify the country to defeat the British at the same time. The founders took on the most pressing task first, leaving the door open to resolve slavery as it became possible to do so. I consider slavery an abomination. A horrible evil. It boggles my mind how anything so horrible could have ever taken place. The fact is, the founding documents did leave the door open to end slavery. It was defeated, slaves were freed and we have attempted to move forward.

 

The same is true of women voting.

 

Many would argue that these have been good changes permitted by the wisdom of our founding documents.

 

I personally believe that the legalization of abortion, and the outright murder of nearly 50 million American babies is an evil on the level of the attrocities of slavery and the holocaust.

 

I am saddened by the secularization of our culture to the point that God is a distant afterthought for many.

 

I still believe that even with all our mistakes and imperfections, this is the greatest nation the world has ever known... and it is primarily because of the freedoms provided by our founders and the generations of men and women who sacrificed to provide those freedoms.

There is more in here than I can coherently respond to right now, so I'll synthesize my responses as simply as I can.

 

What reason do you have to believe that God favors certain states specifically due to their mode of government? If it is the founding documents of this country that garner it favor, why have countries who have modeled their governments after the US's not found such favor? What of countries that have or had explicitly Christian foundations?

 

For every moral qualm you can raise against modern society, one can raise equally as many for the past, including the founding documents, notably slavery and the subjection of women. I don't find your relativist pardoning of those scourges convincing, especially in the context of what God would want, as those principles would be absolute.

 

You claim that allowing individuals to pursue liberty is favorable, but the results of such liberty is unfavorable because the government cannot teach a particular religion, has failed to enforce your conception of morality more stringently, or otherwise that people make choices you find unacceptable. I find that incongruent.

 

Not only does the Constitution call for taxation and the regulation of commerce, there has been a progressive tax structure in this country since the end of the Civil War, and the highest marginal tax rate was nearly double what it is now throughout the 20th century, even surpassing 90% for nearly two decades (including the good ol' days of the 1950s, which I would also argue was a far more restrictive time for corporations). I find it curious that for you it is only now that the rich are being soaked and it is thus that the country is not favorable in the eyes of God.

Funny how these things have a way of spiraling out of control... there's too much to address short of a book.

 

Suffice it to say that I believe the great majority of our history, Americans for the most part honored Judeo-Christian ethics, values and morals... regardless of whether everyone consistently modeled these virtues or not. Human life was regarded as sacred. Prayer and worship were more prevalent as a percentage of total population than I believe it is today. I believe with all my heart that God answers prayer and blesses those who diligently seek Him. I believe our nation has been blessed as a result of the prayers and sacrifices of many, many good men and women who have preceeded us.

 

I realize there are many who may disagree with me, and I'm okay with that. :thumb:

Funny how these things have a way of spiraling out of control... there's too much to address short of a book.

 

Suffice it to say that I believe the great majority of our history, Americans for the most part honored Judeo-Christian ethics, values and morals... regardless of whether everyone consistently modeled these virtues or not. Human life was regarded as sacred. Prayer and worship were more prevalent as a percentage of total population than I believe it is today. I believe with all my heart that God answers prayer and blesses those who diligently seek Him. I believe our nation has been blessed as a result of the prayers and sacrifices of many, many good men and women who have preceeded us.

 

I realize there are many who may disagree with me, and I'm okay with that. :thumb:

 

So.....are you saying that people who don't apply what you feel are the correct political principles are not diligently seeking Him?

So.....are you saying that people who don't apply what you feel are the correct political principles are not diligently seeking Him?

Nope

Nope

 

 

It seems to be strongly implied in your post.

It seems to be strongly implied in your post.

Nah... you're just too sensitive about me throwing around the whole "blessing" thing... :lol:

 

I think God is more concerned about our hearts. He is deeply invested in the quality of our relationship with Him. It doesn't matter whether we live in Louisville, Haiti, Alaska, Romania, or...

 

I strongly believe this country was founded as a place of religious freedom. The vast majority of early (non-native) Americans were Christians of one variety or another. They prayed, fought, sacrificed and labored to build a land unlike any other. I sincerely believe God answered many of their prayers.

 

Perhaps our problems today have less to do with the knuckleheads in Washington, the filth coming from Hollywood and on CDs and MP3s, and the declining state of our culture; and more to do with the fact that those of us who know better are not praying as we should.

Nah... you're just too sensitive about me throwing around the whole "blessing" thing... :lol:

 

I think God is more concerned about our hearts. He is deeply invested in the quality of our relationship with Him. It doesn't matter whether we live in Louisville, Haiti, Alaska, Romania, or...

 

I strongly believe this country was founded as a place of religious freedom. The vast majority of early (non-native) Americans were Christians of one variety or another. They prayed, fought, sacrificed and labored to build a land unlike any other. I sincerely believe God answered many of their prayers.

 

Perhaps our problems today have less to do with the knuckleheads in Washington, the filth coming from Hollywood and on CDs and MP3s, and the declining state of our culture; and more to do with the fact that those of us who know better are not praying as we should.

 

I can agree with most of that.

 

But it doesn't explain your defense of the Founding Fathers' ignorance of the humanitarian issues of slavery or the rights of women. You defend them by saying it was the times they lived in. But Judeo-Christian values haven't changed since then.

I can agree with most of that.

 

But it doesn't explain your defense of the Founding Fathers' ignorance of the humanitarian issues of slavery or the rights of women. You defend them by saying it was the times they lived in. But Judeo-Christian values haven't changed since then.

:lol: You probably have significant issues with the Apostle Paul too then don't you?

 

Are you suggesting that a woman's right to vote is somehow mentioned or protected by scripture? I'm unaware of anywhere in the Bible this is spelled out. I am also unaware of anywhere in the original Bill of Rights that anything to do with men or women voting is spelled out. This was left at the time to the states. At least one state I know of (New Jersey) allowed women who met the same criteria as men (primarily owning property) to vote.

 

What I am saying is, like it or not... the founders had bigger fish to fry. Every single one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence knew his very life and everything he had worked for was in jeopardy merely by placing his name on the document. Every one of us owes them a huge debt of gratitude.

 

The genius of the founders was they weren't so arrogant as to believe they had it all figured out. They knew they were ignorant about some things. They covered the important things they were confident they could stand upon in the original Bill of Rights... the First Ten Amendments of our Constitution... and left the door open for additions as needed or when appropriate.

 

(On a side note, I find it amazing that the rights of our citizens were outlined in 462 words that wll fit on an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper in 12 point Times font, with room to spare.)

 

It took another 74 years (and yes, a war) to finally ratify the 13th Amendment abolishing the evil of slavery. It's unfortunate that it was ever necessary in the first place, but I do think it says something about the character of our nation that out of 27 Amendments, the Abolition of Slavery falls within the first half of them.

 

Today, 145 years later, Oprah is a billionaire, Tiger Woods was well on his way to being the first billionaire athlete, Michael Jordan, Beyonce, Spike Lee, Denzel Washington, and thousands of other athletes, authors, musicians, actors, business people, etc. are multi-millionaires.

 

Success is possible for Americans of all ethnic backgrounds and genders. But not easily if they are born into a culture where they are raised to expect the government to take care of them.

Your belief is not completely accurate. Social Contract Theory says that people GIVE UP SOME OF THEIR RIGHTS and liberties to be able to live peacefully with one another. There is a slight bent to it depending on whether or not you are Hobbesian in your belief about the nature of man(kind) or Lockeian.

 

The government is there to essentially protect us from ourselves. Note, too that Jefferson did not include property, odd isn't it that he would take much of the declaration from Hobbes Treatise but he would change property to pursuit of happiness.

 

If I am living in abject poverty as a 8-15 year old kid, how is my pursuit of happiness being protected?

 

I was refering to Locke, since we are living under a Lockian government and not the Leviathan. Even under the change to pursuit of happiness, the key word is pursuit. People living in abject poverty are not hindered to pursue economic status. Children are provided with a free education that also includes free meals and trasportation. Many do not make the decisions that engage them in that pursuit, but it is far from being hindered by the government, unless you include enabling bad decisions. An 8-15 year old can better themselves if they are living in poverty, but they frankly all too often choose to follow the example of the people that have placed them within that poverty. On the other question that I asked, is the government not approaching unjust when they relieve once citizen of their property and give it to another?

If I am living in abject poverty as a 8-15 year old kid, how is my pursuit of happiness being protected?

The right to pursue happiness is very different from a guarantee of happiness.