If they ran a play after saying they were going to down the ball, I would think it would fall under "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty.

Holding on the left Guard.:thumb:

:laugh: The football gods will strike down!

If they ran a play after saying they were going to down the ball, I would think it would fall under "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty.

 

I agree and the defense crashing through the lines when its obviously a Kneel down play is unnessessary roughness.

If they ran a play after saying they were going to down the ball, I would think it would fall under "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty.

 

Yes, I think it's an unfair act similar to the "where's the tee" scenario in the NFHS Case Book:

 

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, "Where's the tee?" A2 replies, "I'll go get it" and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2. RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to the snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead ball foul. COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

 

I don't think faking the kneel-down is an unfair act per se, but the verbiage (the coach yelling to take the knee before the fake) is.

 

This interpretation did not exist in the Case Book until fairly recently. (Or, maybe I just didn't read it years ago!)

Actually this scenario would be covered by the unfair act clause in the rules. If you tell me you're taking a knee to end the game, then you better do so. As soon as the QB takes the snap and steps back one step I blow the whistle. Nothing good can come form this fake kneeling.

 

Normally team A's formation would be very tight with backs close in just in case of a fumbled snap. The officials are watching closely to make sure it goes as planned and will be quick with the whistle. There should be no chance to run a play once you tell the referee you'll be kneeling it to run out the clock.

 

Now this formation and play may need to run multiple times to run out the entire clock. So the officials need to be on their toes for every such snap. Timeouts called by team B may slow this down also.

I worked a game a few years back where this very thing happened. The coach for the offensive team told me he was going to take a knee, and screamed it over and over to his quarterback on the field. Everybody in the stadium heard him. So, we told the defense to lay off.

 

Of course, the quarterback faked taking the knee, and before we could get our whistles to our stunned lips, he threw a pass to a wide open receiver who would have scored an 80+ yard touchdown. We eventually blew the play dead because we'd told the defense to lay off.

 

Ironically, the coach for the defensive team was the one who complained--loudly I might add. He thought that his defense might have tackled the QB for a loss and possibly forced a last second punt if we hadn't blown it dead. I think it was overly optimistic on his part, especially since we called back a would-be touchdown for the other team, but he made a good point.

 

I still think calling off the defense during a kneel-down is prudent in most game-ending situations. But not at the end of the first half.

 

If I am not mistaken Offside, we were also afraid that you, me and the Umpire were going to get killed if that play continued! :scared: I still dream about that play! YIKES!! :creepy:

 

Telling the defense to lay off the QB when the offense is in a Victory formation is the best policy for everyone involved in the game. You can avoid ridiculous personal fouls and/or unsportmanlike conduct fouls!

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebraman

Offsides, just a comment to make to you. I have been an official for 11 years and LOVE to referee football. It is definately my passion. When I see someone act in such as manner as you do that IMPROVES the game of football I get pumped. I love the way that when you answer questions you start out with the quote from the rule book, not your own opinion. This gives people that would not normally have a clue what the rule book says the exact rule. You are a credit to officials and the game of football with the way you answer these questions. Good job.

 

OS

 

I concur. Great job. Echo what Z-man said about you beginning with the Rule itself. I get amazed from time to time as to the lack of Rules knowledge by many (including some Coaches.)

 

YOur recent explanation of the "Whistle not stopping the Play" was fantastic. Glad you are on here and always very quick with a reply.

 

BROUGHT THIS OVER FROM ANOHTER THREAD- WANTED IT POSTED HERE AS WELL.

If I am not mistaken Offside, we were also afraid that you, me and the Umpire were going to get killed if that play continued! :scared: I still dream about that play! YIKES!! :creepy:

 

You had this exact look on your face: :scared: Cracks me up thinking about it.

 

And thanks again to Jim and Z-man for the kind words. Speaking on behalf of all the zebras on BGP, we love to talk football almost as much as we love to be between the lines. Thanks for the opportunity.

Edited October 22, 200817 yr by offside

You had this exact look on your face: :scared: Cracks me up thinking about it.

 

And thanks again to Jim and Z-man for the kind words. Speaking on behalf of all the zebras on BGP, we love to talk football almost as much as we love to be between the lines. Thanks for the opportunity.

 

Yeah you're right Offside! That did scare the heck out of me! Thanks for saving me on that one!! :thumb: Although that was not as bad as the first time I ever experienced the cannons at Highlands and Ashland! :eek: WOW! I think that I had to change my shorts at half time!!

I like your thinking, coach.

I think it was illegal procedure on the offense!

 

My sentiments on the offsides comments and all of the referees. It starts with getting inside the rule book for the foundation of the rule. Then as officials get more experience, then it becomes game management. Friday nights are special nights for all.

Edited October 24, 200817 yr by jimmyref

I thought that the noseguard was allowed to swat the ball as soon as the ball is moved. Doesn't the first movement of the ball start the play?

I thought that the noseguard was allowed to swat the ball as soon as the ball is moved. Doesn't the first movement of the ball start the play?

 

Neither the NFHS Rules Book, nor the Case Book, specifically says whether it is legal or illegal. Officials argue about it all the time. Here's the interpretation that I'm going with:

 

From Rogers Redding's NFHS Football Rules:

 

"Example 3-19. After the ready, all Team A players are set. As A53 snaps the ball, B72 reaches in and knocks the ball away. RULING: The umpire must decide whether the snap was illegal or B72 encroached.

 

It is highly unlikely the preceding example could occur without a foul. In practicality, for a defensive player to knock the ball away, either the snapper would have to hesitate after lifting the ball making the snap illegal and thus allowing the opponent enough time to touch the ball, or the Team B player would have to put his hand into the neutral zone before the snap."

 

In the context of the situation described in this thread, a highschool team taking a knee in the last seconds of a game, swatting at the snap should result in an encroachment foul against the defense. To quote HeyRef, "nothing good can come of it".

 

I'll leave open the remote possibility that it could be a legal play if it happened some time earlier in the game. But that's a different can of worms we can discuss separately.

OS

 

Another great job of explanation.......................your even now beyond the Rule BOOk and into secondary sources.:ylsuper:

Neither the NFHS Rules Book, nor the Case Book, specifically says whether it is legal or illegal. Officials argue about it all the time. Here's the interpretation that I'm going with:

 

From Rogers Redding's NFHS Football Rules:

 

"Example 3-19. After the ready, all Team A players are set. As A53 snaps the ball, B72 reaches in and knocks the ball away. RULING: The umpire must decide whether the snap was illegal or B72 encroached.

 

It is highly unlikely the preceding example could occur without a foul. In practicality, for a defensive player to knock the ball away, either the snapper would have to hesitate after lifting the ball making the snap illegal and thus allowing the opponent enough time to touch the ball, or the Team B player would have to put his hand into the neutral zone before the snap."

 

In the context of the situation described in this thread, a highschool team taking a knee in the last seconds of a game, swatting at the snap should result in an encroachment foul against the defense. To quote HeyRef, "nothing good can come of it".

 

I'll leave open the remote possibility that it could be a legal play if it happened some time earlier in the game. But that's a different can of worms we can discuss separately.

 

Great explanation! Thanks for the clarification