I personally know of no person that has taken education seriously and worked to put themselves in a position to be a contributor to society, that is worse off than they were 8 years ago.

 

Now, I know a lot of people that felt education was unimportant and are struggling.

I know a lot of people who think they are entitled to a great job without working hard for it, that are struggling.

 

That does not mean that they are not out there, just I don't know any.

 

 

Come to our area. I've said it too many times to say it again. We live in an area of the country that is flat dollars, flat business growth, flat everything.

 

Bush's economy has stronger numbers than he's being criticized for but I believe you will find the strength limited to certain industries and mainly certain regions. Here in VA the Northside and Tidewater have boomed but come to southside and Southwest and you will find the other side of the pendulum.

What is your source for those numbers? Unemployment is at 4.8% currently, up from 4.5% earlier this year, which is quite low. It's disingenuous to suggest that it is up from 2.6% as you assert.

 

Clinton left office with a $5.7 trillion debt. Certainly Bush has been a bigger spender, especially with Iraq, but Clinton did not pay off the national debt. Perhaps you mean he left a budget surplus during a fiscal year, but our national debt has always been staggering.

 

The annual GDP growth rate was 3.7% in 2000 and was 3.3% as of 2006 while the GDP has risen from $9.8 trillion to $13.4 trillion in 2006. Here is a chart documenting it since 1980.

 

[ATTACH]22096[/ATTACH]

 

Inflation was also 2.2% in 2000 and rose to 2.9% in 2006. Currently it is trending downward. Again I’ve attached a chart to show its trend since 1980.

 

[ATTACH]22097[/ATTACH]

 

When have tuition and energy prices ever decreased?

 

Those are certainly not the dour figures you have claimed. Not to mention our, and the world’s, financial center was hit with a debilitating terrorist attack during this time. Without question in my mind the economy was better under Clinton, but it hasn’t exactly nosedived as you are implying. titletownclown's opinion is not off base.

 

 

I agree but I wonder if fuel costs have ever soared as high % wise as they have in the last 8 years.

I don't think you can rank Bush for a few years. Time has to pass and see where everything lays. Distance provides a better perspective.

9/11 was a tough blow for any president but I wonder if we can think of any other big blows past presidents had to face and how they handled them?

 

 

James Madison and the War of 1812. The Capitol was burned and he had to lead the country from the back of a horse.

 

Lincoln walked into Secession, Fort Sumter and a Civil War.

 

Roosevelt faced Pearl Harbor and leading a war on 2 fronts and a coalition that included one of your staunches enemies (USSR).

 

Hoover was president less than a year when the Stock Market crashed and everything went to Hades in a hand basket.

 

 

How did Bush fare with some of these? Better than some. Maybe not as well as others.

I don't think you can rank Bush for a few years. Time has to pass and see where everything lays. Distance provides a better perspective.

9/11 was a tough blow for any president but I wonder if we can think of any other big blows past presidents had to face and how they handled them?

 

 

James Madison and the War of 1812. The Capitol was burned and he had to lead the country from the back of a horse.

 

Lincoln walked into Secession, Fort Sumter and a Civil War.

 

Roosevelt faced Pearl Harbor and leading a war on 2 fronts and a coalition that included one of your staunches enemies (USSR).

 

Hoover was president less than a year when the Stock Market crashed and everything went to Hades in a hand basket.

 

 

How did Bush fare with some of these? Better than some. Maybe not as well as others.

 

As I said earlier, I agree that judgement on him has to wait and see how things shake out.

 

In comparing him to past presidents, I think it is also vital to look at the societal environment and media focus to look at their actions.

 

I am guessing here but thinking that Madison didn't have hundreds, thousands of reporters, talk show hosts, etc hounding/analyzing/blowing out of proportion, his every move.

 

I am guessing it is much harder to get things done today, than ever before. And will be even worse for the next Presidents with the increasing use of the Internet to define a President the way you see fit whether that is honest and truthful or not.

I don't think you can rank Bush for a few years.

 

 

:laugh:

 

If his last year in office is half as bad as his first 7 - it will be a long 12 months.

Can I go ahead and rank him as the worst public speaking president? Maybe it's just because the camreas are always rolling now, but he fumbles over his words constantly. It really is hard to listen to him talk.

Can I go ahead and rank him as the worst public speaking president? Maybe it's just because the camreas are always rolling now, but he fumbles over his words constantly. It really is hard to listen to him talk.

 

And what makes him sound even worse was that he followed one of the best public speaking Presidents of all time. Clinton could convince you that your BGP name was Socrates and you would begin to believe him. He was that daggone slick of a speaker.

Can I go ahead and rank him as the worst public speaking president? Maybe it's just because the camreas are always rolling now, but he fumbles over his words constantly. It really is hard to listen to him talk.

 

I'm a Bush supporter but I agree that he is a very poor public speaker. Unfortunately some people judge his intellect, his decision making abilities and his actions based on his public speaking skills. Which is really kind of stupid. Some of the smartest people I have met are very poor public speakers. But some people judge people these days so carelessly. And when it comes to judging politicians, more and more people allow their political biases to overcome their logical thought process. When you have people on here say they will never vote for a Republican no matter who the Democratic candidate is, can you really put any credibility in their assessment of a Republican president or any action the President may take? Of course not. Its like asking a total bigot how he feels about a black man.

 

In my opinion, it is impossible to judge the merit of the Iraq invasion at this time. Yet many people have done so. Some of them want it to be "wrong" because they don't like Bush. I will admit it was a big gamble. Then again, we've had some leaders willing to take big military gambles in the past when they thought the possible benefits were worth the possible losses. If the gamble works out, the decision makers were bold, brilliant and daring (think Inchon landing). If they don't work out, the decision makers were stupid, motivated by political ambitions, or ineffective (think Carter's hostage rescue attempt). But bottom line: both decisions were made by decision makers willing to make the tough call and that took guts, real guts, which I respect them for regardless of their party affiliation.

If the illegal alien invasion from our southern neighbor continues, future history will be rewritten in Spanish and President Bush will be on everybody's "óptimo" list. Otherwise, I don't see Bush being a threat to Carter, Ford, Nixon, and LBJ on the "worst of" list.

If the illegal alien invasion from our southern neighbor continues, future history will be rewritten in Spanish and President Bush will be on everybody's "óptimo" list. Otherwise, I don't see Bush being a threat to Carter, Ford, Nixon, and LBJ on the "worst of" list.

 

Based on what? The fact that the troops wont have to come home with their tail between their legs during his presidency?

Based on what? The fact that the troops wont have to come home with their tail between their legs during his presidency?

Based on personal observation. I witnessed the gross mismanagement of the war in Southeast Asia that cost tens of thousands of young Americans their lives. I experienced the effects that the failure of Nixon, Ford, and Carter to grasp basic economics. I am not sure who first coined the phrase "misery index" but Carter apparently thought the higher the index number the better.

 

LBJ and Nixon snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Vietnam and millions of innocent people lost their lives as a direct result. No war has ever been more politicized than the Vietnam war and the result was a disaster. Nixon promised "peace with honor" and gave us nothing of the kind.

 

To Bush's credit, the situation in Iraq is improving despite the best efforts by liberal Democrats in Congress to ensure the loss of another war at any cost.

 

Bush's worst mistakes have been in failing to limit spending and the expansion of the federal government and failing to do anything meaningful to combat illegal immigration. Bush has been mediocre at best but his blunders pale in comparison to those who made my list.

Based on personal observation. I witnessed the gross mismanagement of the war in Southeast Asia that cost tens of thousands of young Americans their lives. I experienced the effects that the failure of Nixon, Ford, and Carter to grasp basic economics. I am not sure who first coined the phrase "misery index" but Carter apparently thought the higher the index number the better.

 

LBJ and Nixon snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Vietnam and millions of innocent people lost their lives as a direct result. No war has ever been more politicized than the Vietnam war and the result was a disaster. Nixon promised "peace with honor" and gave us nothing of the kind.

 

To Bush's credit, the situation in Iraq is improving despite the best efforts by liberal Democrats in Congress to ensure the loss of another war at any cost.

 

Bush's worst mistakes have been in failing to limit spending and the expansion of the federal government and failing to do anything meaningful to combat illegal immigration. Bush has been mediocre at best but his blunders pale in comparison to those who made my list.

 

I am not saying that Bush is AS BAD as Nixon - but to say that he is no where near him is a gross understatement.

 

I find it interesting that you bring up Vietnam and the thousands of lives lost there - yet attempt to write off the War in Iraq as going ok - despite the fact that Iraqis have wanted us gone for a long time, the vast majority of Americans want their troops home, and oh, yeah, the fact that we should have never went there to begin with.

 

Bush has blood on his hands too.

I don't think you can rank Bush for a few years. Time has to pass and see where everything lays. Distance provides a better perspective.

9/11 was a tough blow for any president but I wonder if we can think of any other big blows past presidents had to face and how they handled them?

 

 

James Madison and the War of 1812. The Capitol was burned and he had to lead the country from the back of a horse.

 

Lincoln walked into Secession, Fort Sumter and a Civil War.

 

Roosevelt faced Pearl Harbor and leading a war on 2 fronts and a coalition that included one of your staunches enemies (USSR).

 

Hoover was president less than a year when the Stock Market crashed and everything went to Hades in a hand basket.

 

 

How did Bush fare with some of these? Better than some. Maybe not as well as others.

 

Add also, FDRs dealing with the Recession of 1937 and The Dust Bowl.

 

Wasn't there some warning to the Stock Market Crash?

I think Bush is most comparable with LBJ.

I think Bush is most comparable with LBJ.

 

Not the best of company - but where does this rank him? Behind Nixon, Carter, and ahead of everyone else?