I'm starting to lean towards the US pulling out of Iraq sooner rather than later. We're closing in on "the big one" and our armed forces are unprepared to fight it. We need to be able to rest and resupply our troops and get them ready for warfare far worst than Iraq.

Let me see if I can get this and several other recent threads straight...

 

The Bible is nothing more than a quaint storybook. Muslims are the peaceful victims of the real radical terrorists in the world who happen to be American Christians. Nazis, the KKK, gay killers, abortion clinic bombers and Fred Phelps are Christians, Saddam Hussein really wasn't all that bad and talk radio is the root of all our troubles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The end is in sight...

Let me see if I can get this and several other recent threads straight...

 

The Bible is nothing more than a quaint storybook. Muslims are the peaceful victims of the real radical terrorists in the world who happen to be American Christians. Nazis, the KKK, gay killers, abortion clinic bombers and Fred Phelps are Christians, Saddam Hussein really wasn't all that bad and talk radio is the root of all our troubles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The end is in sight...

Oh no, I think I am going to grab my family, get my things in order and go live on top of the mountain until the end comes . . . it looks as if I've had it all wrong!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

Looks like we all got it wrong if some of these folks are right... :eek:

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me see if I can get this and several other recent threads straight...

 

The Bible is nothing more than a quaint storybook. Muslims are the peaceful victims of the real radical terrorists in the world who happen to be American Christians. Nazis, the KKK, gay killers, abortion clinic bombers and Fred Phelps are Christians, Saddam Hussein really wasn't all that bad and talk radio is the root of all our troubles.

 

:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The end is in sight...

 

You could actually try to contribute to the conversation. :flame:

I really, truly, genuinely am not looking to start something here... but do you actually believe the stuff you say on here, or are you just trying to get a rise out of us?

 

If so, where do you come up with this stuff?

 

What do you base it on?

 

I really would like to know.

 

My reading of the scripture. The bible talks a lot about substitutionary atonement and propitiation, but it never talks about how it occured. I happen to believe it occurred when God reached down into history and gave us his Son - the birth. The death was pure obedience and sacrifice - but it was not necessary for God's forgiveness. God is omnipotent if I recall.

 

I have been studying and reading about the notion for the past six months, and talking with my pastor and my father-in-law who is a Baptist preacher in Texas and a former professor or hermeneutics, etc at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.

 

FWIW - I believe the atonement took place with the birth and that the death was a natural part of the sacrificing life of Jesus and it was not demanded by a blood thirsty God. I believe, however, that I am in the minority on this one.

So do you discount much of the OT and God's actions in the OT as just fictional stories?

 

I mean he did tell Moses that as long as you are holding your hands up you will be winning a battle (I assume winning the battle means killing people).

So do you discount much of the OT and God's actions in the OT as just fictional stories?

 

I mean he did tell Moses that as long as you are holding your hands up you will be winning a battle (I assume winning the battle means killing people).

 

LBBC we have been through this a great deal, and for the first time - I believe in ever - there is one poster on this thread that has similar understandings of the Old Testament as myself. I believe that that people wrote God back into their histories when they wrote the stories. "When things were going well, we were close to God, when they were not we were Far from God."

 

Here is where I think you have have to be in order to take the Old Testament Literally -

 

1) God's nature has changed. You cannot possibly harmonize the God of Jesus with the God of the Old Testament. The God of Jesus says to "turn the other cheek, to LOVE your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you". The God of Peace and Understanding is not the God described in the Old Testament

 

or

 

2) Our religion is no different than the radical muslim religion in that all non-believers must be killed, even the women and children. The children must have their heads bashed against the stones according to the psalmist. All the infidels must die!!!

 

Which is it?

What does scripture have to do with this war? We're not a theocracy.

LBBC we have been through this a great deal, and for the first time - I believe in ever - there is one poster on this thread that has similar understandings of the Old Testament as myself. I believe that that people wrote God back into their histories when they wrote the stories. "When things were going well, we were close to God, when they were not we were Far from God."

 

Here is where I think you have have to be in order to take the Old Testament Literally -

 

1) God's nature has changed. You cannot possibly harmonize the God of Jesus with the God of the Old Testament. The God of Jesus says to "turn the other cheek, to LOVE your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you". The God of Peace and Understanding is not the God described in the Old Testament

 

or

 

2) Our religion is no different than the radical muslim religion in that all non-believers must be killed, even the women and children. The children must have their heads bashed against the stones according to the psalmist. All the infidels must die!!!

 

Which is it?

I have absolutely no problem doing that, but that would be a great discussion for another thread.

 

Let me add one point on what I italicized. Interesting that you take that view on what was said about God in the OT but do not give that same consideration to what was attributed to Jesus in the NT. Again picking and choosing what you want to believe in the Bible rather what is in the Bible. You discount the OT and give your reasoning that is sound. But then do not look at what is said about Jesus in the NT in the exact same way that you look at God in the OT. I think you need to judge both with the same pair of eyes.

My reading of the scripture. The bible talks a lot about substitutionary atonement and propitiation, but it never talks about how it occurred.

 

I happen to believe it occurred when God reached down into history and gave us his Son - the birth. The death was pure obedience and sacrifice - but it was not necessary for God's forgiveness. God is omnipotent if I recall.

 

I have been studying and reading about the notion for the past six months, and talking with my pastor and my father-in-law who is a Baptist preacher in Texas and a former professor or hermeneutics, etc at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.

No offense intended Ace, but I genuinely find myself questioning what version of the Bible you read, and just how deeply you read it to completely miss one of the most significant themes that runs from Genesis to Revelations.

 

You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish, but I could not question your conclusions more.

 

There’s no way a pastor grounded in the Gospel and a Baptist preacher could give you a wink and a nod on the conclusions you’re forwarding here. Are you sure they are actually listening to what you’re saying?

 

The following are just a quick perusal of some of the verses detailing the value and meaning of the Blood of Christ. If you read and understand these verses in context, you must then deny them entirely to reach the conclusion you are forwarding above.

 

Again, no offense intended, but I’m going to entrust my eternal salvation to the actual words of Jesus and His disciples… :thumb:

 

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

 

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

 

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

 

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

 

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

 

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

 

Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

 

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

 

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

You could actually try to contribute to the conversation. :flame:

Why?

 

You already have all the answers... :lol:

What does scripture have to do with this war? We're not a theocracy.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

No offense intended Ace, but I genuinely find myself questioning what version of the Bible you read, and just how deeply you read it to completely miss one of the most significant themes that runs from Genesis to Revelations.

 

You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish, but I could not question your conclusions more.

 

There’s no way a pastor grounded in the Gospel and a Baptist preacher could give you a wink and a nod on the conclusions you’re forwarding here. Are you sure they are actually listening to what you’re saying?

 

The following are just a quick perusal of some of the verses detailing the value and meaning of the Blood of Christ. If you read and understand these verses in context, you must then deny them entirely to reach the conclusion you are forwarding above.

 

Again, no offense intended, but I’m going to entrust my eternal salvation to the actual words of Jesus and His disciples… :thumb:

 

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

 

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

 

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

 

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

 

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

 

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

 

Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

 

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

 

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

 

there is not one place in all of that scripture that says that GOD DEMANDED the BLOOD SACRIFICE of Jesus, NOT ONE

there is not one place in all of that scripture that says that GOD DEMANDED the BLOOD SACRIFICE of Jesus, NOT ONE

Sigh...

 

I wish you well as you try to find your way according to your own rules Ace... :thumb: