Curious to know why you think its a great rule. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

If all adults/parents were responsible and able to tell when enough is enough, I don't think we'd need this rule. Unfortunately that's not the case. The last thing a knothole kid needs is to throw 80 pitches Monday, 60 pitches Wednesday and 50 pitches Saturday. Monday and Saturday could be for one team and Wednesday for another. IMO, the "innings pitched" criteria is ridiculous because it means nothing. A kid can throw 30 pitches in an inning, especially at that age. (I understand why we use innings pitched opposed to pitches thrown because it's easier for both teams to track.)

 

Anyway, both coaches may think they're doing the kid right by letting him pitch in a game but not overdoing it. Unfortunately they don't know what the kid has done on the other team. Seen it before, dad wants to win so he allows his kid to throw more than he should. This rule would eliminate that possibility or a chance for a miscommunication...

What ever the final form of the rule is, I sincerely hope that it is in the spirit of the kids first, after all that is who is playing the game. To place limits on where a kid plays does not make any program very attractive to the player or the parent. A kid chooses where to play and how many programs to play for based on many factors ranging from physical ability to coaching to where his buddies are playing. Don't take that away from them, or we run the risk of driving them away from something they enjoy, baseball.

 

This is 100% about the kids. It's about their safety...

I do not see any problem with playing high school ball and then playing babe ruth or whatever league you can play at your age level. Most coaches in babe ruth understand that high school comes first and then they can play with them. As far as pitchers they should not be allowed to pitch in babe ruth until the high school season is over.

I do not see any problem with playing high school ball and then playing babe ruth or whatever league you can play at your age level. Most coaches in babe ruth understand that high school comes first and then they can play with them. As far as pitchers they should not be allowed to pitch in babe ruth until the high school season is over.

 

I'd be ok with that. As long as it was equally enforced. They'd have to leave out the gray area, like kids that "are not pitchers."

If all adults/parents were responsible and able to tell when enough is enough, I don't think we'd need this rule. Unfortunately that's not the case. The last thing a knothole kid needs is to throw 80 pitches Monday, 60 pitches Wednesday and 50 pitches Saturday. Monday and Saturday could be for one team and Wednesday for another. IMO, the "innings pitched" criteria is ridiculous because it means nothing. A kid can throw 30 pitches in an inning, especially at that age. (I understand why we use innings pitched opposed to pitches thrown because it's easier for both teams to track.)

 

Anyway, both coaches may think they're doing the kid right by letting him pitch in a game but not overdoing it. Unfortunately they don't know what the kid has done on the other team. Seen it before, dad wants to win so he allows his kid to throw more than he should. This rule would eliminate that possibility or a chance for a miscommunication...

 

The first sentence is what I expected. The problem I have with it, is once again we are imposing rules on, and taking parental rights from, a majority of parents that will do the right thing because some parents make bad decisions. This sort of "it takes a village to raise a child because some parents aren't responsible enough to raise them themselves" thinking just bothers me. The more society allows parents to not have to raise their kids (the "village" will do it for them) the more irresponsible parents we create. And this rule is just another one on the slippery slope of society taking parental rights away. Its harsh, but I'd rather we not take parental rights away because we think we supposedly know what's better for their children than they do.

 

 

One of the greatest ironies I regularly encounter is that teachers and administrators regularly gripe about how they have to do more and more "parenting" in the schools instead of just educating the kids, yet teachers and administrators are some of the leading proponents of rules that take parental rights away from parents thus not allowing parents to due the parenting. In this rush to "save" every child, we weaken the entire system. The new KHSAA rule we are discussing is just another example of it. Not all parents are going to be good parents. I understand that. Some kids will get harmed as a result. But life's tough, I know thats harsh. Maybe some irresponsible parents, when they see their children getting harmed due to the parents' irresponsibility, will wake up and smell the coffee and start being better parents.

 

 

As for the lack of communication resulting in a kid pitching for both teams back to back, there's always the possibility of asking the kid or the high school coach calling the knothole coach and coordinating the situation. I mean we are talking about what, at the most, probably 5 or 6 kids on the team that this would be an issue on?

 

Sorry for getting some what off topic.

The first sentence is what I expected. The problem I have with it, is once again we are imposing rules on, and taking parental rights from, a majority of parents that will do the right thing because some parents make bad decisions. This sort of "it takes a village to raise a child because some parents aren't responsible enough to raise them themselves" thinking just bothers me. The more society allows parents to not have to raise their kids (the "village" will do it for them) the more irresponsible parents we create. And this rule is just another one on the slippery slope of society taking parental rights away. Its harsh, but I'd rather we not take parental rights away because we think we supposedly know what's better for their children than they do.

 

 

One of the greatest ironies I regularly encounter is that teachers and administrators regularly gripe about how they have to do more and more "parenting" in the schools instead of just educating the kids, yet teachers and administrators are some of the leading proponents of rules that take parental rights away from parents thus not allowing parents to due the parenting. In this rush to "save" every child, we weaken the entire system. The new KHSAA rule we are discussing is just another example of it. Not all parents are going to be good parents. I understand that. Some kids will get harmed as a result. But life's tough, I know thats harsh. Maybe some irresponsible parents, when they see their children getting harmed due to the parents' irresponsibility, will wake up and smell the coffee and start being better parents.

 

Sorry for getting some what off topic.

 

I respectfully disagree. This is not being truant, missing assignments or smarting off in class. This is something that will haunt you your entire life. I'm proof of that. I dropped my 14 month old son when my arm gave out because the amount of baseball I played. I had shoulder surgery, it bothers me every day. If there was a way to help prevent knee injuries, they'd put that into place. This will help prevent arm injuries, so it needs to be put into place.

 

You are correct that some, definitely not all, parents would do what's best for their kid. However, #1 fear for me as a coach is blowing a kids arm out. This will help prevent unknowingly doing that. There are a LOT of people that don't know how to properly care for your arm. To me, this is the same thing as limiting # of innings pitched in a week, and no one complained about that...

 

Oh and for everyone, why isn't this a problem with other sports? Didn't they just ban volleyball players from playing club while playing high school?

As for the lack of communication resulting in a kid pitching for both teams back to back, there's always the possibility of asking the kid or the high school coach calling the knothole coach and coordinating the situation. I mean we are talking about what, at the most, probably 5 or 6 kids on the team that this would be an issue on?

 

Sorry for getting some what off topic.

 

What, there's not enough for a high school coach to do so add the worry of contacting everyone's summer coach? The coordination should be, the kid doesn't pitch knothole if he's on the high school team...period. And from what I've seen, it wouldn't matter to some of these fathers that are coaching their kids. That is why the rule needs to put into place. Much more of overdoing it to win a knothole game than miscommunication...

I respectfully disagree. This is not being truant, missing assignments or smarting off in class. This is something that will haunt you your entire life. I'm proof of that. I dropped my 14 month old son when my arm gave out because the amount of baseball I played. I had shoulder surgery, it bothers me every day. If there was a way to help prevent knee injuries, they'd put that into place. This will help prevent arm injuries, so it needs to be put into place.

 

You are correct that some, definitely not all, parents would do what's best for their kid. However, #1 fear for me as a coach is blowing a kids arm out. This will help prevent unknowingly doing that. There are a LOT of people that don't know how to properly care for your arm. To me, this is the same thing as limiting # of innings pitched in a week, and no one complained about that...

 

Oh and for everyone, why isn't this a problem with other sports? Didn't they just ban volleyball players from playing club while playing high school?

 

 

As to your last point, the proposed rule (I don't think the rule has yet been approved by the State Board of Education) would apply to all sports, including volleyball. And that point somewhat validates the point I was trying to make. The rule has nothing to do with the safety of the kids. Jim Sexton proposed this rule because he felt that kids were devoting too much time to athletics outside the school system (and for another less noble reason discussed below). Sorry Jim, but its not your right to decide if my son/daughter has the time to play sports outside the school system. It my parental right to make that call and mine alone (well, I'm sure Henry would get were 20 cents worth into the decision).

 

As to your arm problems (and I'm really going to upset you here and I apologize for it) but whose fault is it that your arm is now blown out? No one other than your parents. Your parents should have told your knothole coach that you could only play infield or outfield because you were pitching for the school team or vice versa if they felt it was in your best interest. Period, end of discussion. As for lots of people not knowing about how to properly care for a kids arm, is it that difficult to talk to a doctor or read up on the internet or talk to a coach? There is a wealth of info out there, all you have to do is look/ask.

 

Again, the justification for these types of rules is always the same: we (the school administrators) have to do it because there are some parents who won't be good parents. I appreciate the caring and compassion behind this thinking, I really do and I'm sure Sticky that your support for the rule is very, very noble. I'm just philosophically opposed to administrators making my child rearing decisions for me. And yes, I realize that there are plenty of those rules in place and a lot of them are very good. Wearing a mouthpiece in football for example. I just think that we should only put those types of rules in place when they are absolutely necessary to protect the children and I don't agree that is the case here.

 

And as I pointed out in my original paragraph, this rule isn't really about safety. I have a hard time envisioning how playing volleyball on a club team while playing volleyball on the high school team is unsafe. This rule, in my opinion, grew out of some administrators becoming alarmed at the growth of AAU type teams that benefitted some high schools more than others. Its another attempt by the have nots to bring down the haves. Of course they had to cloak the support for the rule in something else and it was safety and concern that outside sports were taking too much study time away from the students. Sticky, you know that I respect the heck out of you and I'm sure your support for the rule is to protect the players, but there are other ways to protect them without taking parental rights away.

 

And please don't give me that baseball coaches have too much to do. What are we talking about: an hour meeting at the beginning of the season to meet with the parents of the pitchers. Educate them on the need to protect their children and how to do it. Tell them that they must make sure their knothole coaches do the same. Advise them that you strongly recommend that their sons not pitch on the knothole team. Heck, invite the knothole coaches to the meeting. If the parents are going to allow them to pitch on the knothole team, then don't let them pitch for the high school team if you are so concerned about the kids safety (and I think you are). It isn't that difficult to handle this issue without the draconian step of prohibiting all participation on knothole teams.

As to your last point, the proposed rule (I don't think the rule has yet been approved by the State Board of Education) would apply to all sports, including volleyball. And that point somewhat validates the point I was trying to make. The rule has nothing to do with the safety of the kids. Jim Sexton proposed this rule because he felt that kids were devoting too much time to athletics outside the school system (and for another less noble reason discussed below). Sorry Jim, but its not your right to decide if my son/daughter has the time to play sports outside the school system. It my parental right to make that call and mine alone (well, I'm sure Henry would get were 20 cents worth into the decision).

 

I was under the impression that this already existed for the rest of the sports, just not baseball yet. And to be honest, pitching is THE only concern.

 

As to your arm problems (and I'm really going to upset you here and I apologize for it) but whose fault is it that your arm is now blown out? No one other than your parents. Your parents should have told your knothole coach that you could only play infield or outfield because you were pitching for the school team or vice versa if they felt it was in your best interest. Period, end of discussion. As for lots of people not knowing about how to properly care for a kids arm, is it that difficult to talk to a doctor or read up on the internet or talk to a coach? There is a wealth of info out there, all you have to do is look/ask.

 

That doesn't upset me at all, for some reason.:confused: My parents made the right contacts and according to the technology of the day, they did the right thing. A TON of parents today think that's still the method. People are still teaching 'drop and drive', which is the reason I had problems. With motion sensors, high speed cameras, MRI's...etc. we now know that that method is not the best way. They are saying that 8-10 year olds shouldn't throw more than 52 pitches per game no more than twice a week. Shoot, that's two innings. Just 15 years ago it was ok to throw close to 80 pitches for a kid that age.

 

Again, the justification for these types of rules is always the same: we (the school administrators) have to do it because there are some parents who won't be good parents. I appreciate the caring and compassion behind this thinking, I really do and I'm sure Sticky that your support for the rule is very, very noble. I'm just philosophically opposed to administrators making my child rearing decisions for me. And yes, I realize that there are plenty of those rules in place and a lot of them are very good. Wearing a mouthpiece in football for example. I just think that we should only put those types of rules in place when they are absolutely necessary to protect the children and I don't agree that is the case here.

 

I agree to an extent, but I've always thought the strong should support the weak. As long as the weak are not themselves being indolent. In this case, there parents. Because you and Henry are responsible, intelligent parents (well at least Henry is ) doesn't mean a kid who doesn't have that support shouldn't be protected. Is kind of my point...

 

And as I pointed out in my original paragraph, this rule isn't really about safety. I have a hard time envisioning how playing volleyball on a club team while playing volleyball on the high school team is unsafe. This rule, in my opinion, grew out of some administrators becoming alarmed at the growth of AAU type teams that benefitted some high schools more than others. Its another attempt by the have nots to bring down the haves. Of course they had to cloak the support for the rule in something else and it was safety and concern that outside sports were taking too much study time away from the students. Sticky, you know that I respect the heck out of you and I'm sure your support for the rule is to protect the players, but there are other ways to protect them without taking parental rights away.

 

I don't care about other sports... :lol:

 

And please don't give me that baseball coaches have too much to do. What are we talking about: an hour meeting at the beginning of the season to meet with the parents of the pitchers. Educate them on the need to protect their children and how to do it. Tell them that they must make sure their knothole coaches do the same. Advise them that you strongly recommend that their sons not pitch on the knothole team. Heck, invite the knothole coaches to the meeting. If the parents are going to allow them to pitch on the knothole team, then don't let them pitch for the high school team if you are so concerned about the kids safety (and I think you are). It isn't that difficult to handle this issue without the draconian step of prohibiting all participation on knothole teams.

 

"An hour meeting at the beginning of the season?" (Oh and for the record, parent meetings haven't had wonderful attendance, numbers wise.) Surely you don't think that's all that would have to be done. You're talking about communicating to the summer coach. It's impossible to predict when a kid is going to throw. You can't just get together at the beginning of the season and say "Johnny is going to pitch on Tuesday for me so you can pitch him on Saturday." Impossible. The only thing you can say is that the kid will pitch for his high school team and not for his summer team. And to be honest, to say you shouldn't allow him to pitch for the high school team defeats the purpose in starting a kid at a young age in your program. I'd venture a guess that there aren't 5% of the coaches in knothole that know the proper pitching mechanics, pitch count max, days of rest needed (not just regulated by the league), at what age a kid should be throwing what pitches...etc.

 

For the purpose of this thread, being in the baseball forum, I think it's a much needed rule. As for the other sports, not sure but as a coach the last thing I want is to try to teach a kid a philosophy and have him being pulled in another direction by someone else. ESPECIALLY, since I've worked my tail off to learn the proper way to teach the game, physically and mentally.

I was under the impression that this already existed for the rest of the sports, just not baseball yet. And to be honest, pitching is THE only concern.

 

 

 

That doesn't upset me at all, for some reason.:confused: My parents made the right contacts and according to the technology of the day, they did the right thing. A TON of parents today think that's still the method. People are still teaching 'drop and drive', which is the reason I had problems. With motion sensors, high speed cameras, MRI's...etc. we now know that that method is not the best way. They are saying that 8-10 year olds shouldn't throw more than 52 pitches per game no more than twice a week. Shoot, that's two innings. Just 15 years ago it was ok to throw close to 80 pitches for a kid that age.

 

 

 

I agree to an extent, but I've always thought the strong should support the weak. As long as the weak are not themselves being indolent. In this case, there parents. Because you and Henry are responsible, intelligent parents (well at least Henry is ) doesn't mean a kid who doesn't have that support shouldn't be protected. Is kind of my point...

 

 

 

I don't care about other sports... :lol:

 

 

 

"An hour meeting at the beginning of the season?" (Oh and for the record, parent meetings haven't had wonderful attendance, numbers wise.) Surely you don't think that's all that would have to be done. You're talking about communicating to the summer coach. It's impossible to predict when a kid is going to throw. You can't just get together at the beginning of the season and say "Johnny is going to pitch on Tuesday for me so you can pitch him on Saturday." Impossible. The only thing you can say is that the kid will pitch for his high school team and not for his summer team. And to be honest, to say you shouldn't allow him to pitch for the high school team defeats the purpose in starting a kid at a young age in your program. I'd venture a guess that there aren't 5% of the coaches in knothole that know the proper pitching mechanics, pitch count max, days of rest needed (not just regulated by the league), at what age a kid should be throwing what pitches...etc.

 

For the purpose of this thread, being in the baseball forum, I think it's a much needed rule. As for the other sports, not sure but as a coach the last thing I want is to try to teach a kid a philosophy and have him being pulled in another direction by someone else. ESPECIALLY, since I've worked my tail off to learn the proper way to teach the game, physically and mentally.

 

 

I have several items of response, but out of respect for you and to avoid further hi jacking of this thread, I'll let you have the last substantive post. You're a good man and I know your heart is certainly in the right place.