Please define, in detail, what it means to "finish the job". How will we know when the job is finished? What metrics can we use to measure when this objective is achieved? And what specifically, other than putting our people in harm's way to be blown up by IED's, car bombs, and killed by snipers, can we do to achieve it? Maybe you're not aware, but a great many (probably the majority) of the people killing our kids in Iraq are not al Qaeda terrorists--they are sectarian militia who just want us to leave. How can you "finish the job" by using force to impose our will on a population that doesn't particularly want us there? What if, no matter what we do, the outcome is not entirely in our control? Our military men and women deserve a well-defined mission, not one that is made up on the fly or ambiguously defined by the hoped-for outcome.

 

Finish the job. Mighty simple phrase to describe such a complex situation.

Quite simply, finishing the job is seeing to it that a stable government with a military that can take on the terrorists in that region and control their own country is in place.

You seem to forget about Zarqawi. Remember what they found on his computer? The media and the activists crying how we had no right to be there fell right into the trap he set, his plan to create a civil war was easy really when left in their hands.

You didn’t answer the question; do you think we should pull out now?

This isn't a reply to any post in particular, I just thought that I would put my two cents in the pot.

 

IMO, the longer we stay there the more hostile terrorists are going to become towards us. I really don't see how staying there longer will ever produce an end result or what it could even be. Peace? That will never happen while we are there. Our mere presence there, in their minds, justifies their violence. I think that until we remove our selves that we will always be the scapegoat for the continuing sectarian violence currently going on there. I feel that it will only be after our departure that they realize it is still an internal problem that is needed to be dealt with. A solution is needed and I don't feel that they will ever let the U.S. ever be truly a part of that solution.

:lol: Do you have any idea how long these people have hated us. Hint: It goes way back before 9/11.

^ Obviously. But you cannot argue with the fact the the longer we stay there the more aggrivated they are going to become. Thus creating the desire for a more drastic retaliation.

Considering what they did to us on 9/11, I'm not sure they can get any more hostile.

It could get much worse imo than 9/11. How many people died in the 9/11 attacks? That is one isolated event, now compare that to the number of people who die in the middle east from bombings on a weekly basis. I'm not trying to down play 9/11 because it was a horrible and tragic event but I would guess that the terrorists have many other ideas that would be staggering compared to 9/11.

It could get much worse imo than 9/11. How many people died in the 9/11 attacks? That is one isolated event, now compare that to the number of people who die in the middle east from bombings on a weekly basis. I'm not trying to down play 9/11 because it was a horrible and tragic event but I would guess that the terrorists have many other ideas that would be staggering compared to 9/11.

There is a reason that it hasn't gotten worse. There is always the threat of our retaliation to any type of attack. Whether radical or not, a potential enemy of the U.S. must always take into account potential consequences. We must keep those consequences in order to maintain security. Their hatred is already there. Fear and intelligence are what keeps a floodgate of attacks from opening.

It could get much worse imo than 9/11. How many people died in the 9/11 attacks? That is one isolated event, now compare that to the number of people who die in the middle east from bombings on a weekly basis. I'm not trying to down play 9/11 because it was a horrible and tragic event but I would guess that the terrorists have many other ideas that would be staggering compared to 9/11.

 

I totally agree, but I don't think our presence in the Middle East in any way makes them more likely to try and carry out such an attack. If anything, it makes it more difficult for them to organize and plan such an attack.

 

Scenario 1 - Suppose we hadn't responded in any way with our military after the attacks of 9/11, do you think the terrorists would have been satisfied with that and left us alone, never to strike again? I don't.

 

Scenario 2 - Suppose we pulled out now and left the Middle East completely, do you think the terrorists would leave us alone? I don't.

 

The fact is, they can only hate us so much...if we just left them alone, it would free them up to organize and plan more attacks, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think they would.

 

I'm not trying to defend the war on Iraq. I just get irritated when people say we're just inlfaming their hatred toward us and making it worse by being over there. I would ask, what inflamed their hatred before 9/11? Ask Israel how successful the tactic of appeasement is when dealing with terrorists.

There is a reason that it hasn't gotten worse. There is always the threat of our retaliation to any type of attack. Whether radical or not, a potential enemy of the U.S. must always take into account potential consequences. We must keep those consequences in order to maintain security. Their hatred is already there. Fear and intelligence are what keeps a floodgate of attacks from opening.

 

 

Good observation, absolutely correct.

I totally agree, but I don't think our presence in the Middle East in any way makes them more likely to try and carry out such an attack. If anything, it makes it more difficult for them to organize and plan such an attack.

 

Scenario 1 - Suppose we hadn't responded in any way with our military after the attacks of 9/11, do you think the terrorists would have been satisfied with that and left us alone, never to strike again? I don't.

 

Scenario 2 - Suppose we pulled out now and left the Middle East completely, do you think the terrorists would leave us alone? I don't.

 

The fact is, they can only hate us so much...if we just left them alone, it would free them up to organize and plan more attacks, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think they would.

 

I'm not trying to defend the war on Iraq. I just get irritated when people say we're just inlfaming their hatred toward us and making it worse by being over there. I would ask, what inflamed their hatred before 9/11? Ask Israel how successful the tactic of appeasement is when dealing with terrorists.

 

Yet again, absolutely correct. I completley agree with the bolded portion.

I'm not an idiot!

Can't tell by looking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

j/k RM

I totally agree, but I don't think our presence in the Middle East in any way makes them more likely to try and carry out such an attack. If anything, it makes it more difficult for them to organize and plan such an attack.

 

Scenario 1 - Suppose we hadn't responded in any way with our military after the attacks of 9/11, do you think the terrorists would have been satisfied with that and left us alone, never to strike again? I don't.

 

Scenario 2 - Suppose we pulled out now and left the Middle East completely, do you think the terrorists would leave us alone? I don't.

 

The fact is, they can only hate us so much...if we just left them alone, it would free them up to organize and plan more attacks, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think they would.

 

I'm not trying to defend the war on Iraq. I just get irritated when people say we're just inlfaming their hatred toward us and making it worse by being over there. I would ask, what inflamed their hatred before 9/11? Ask Israel how successful the tactic of appeasement is when dealing with terrorists.

Great post, all of it. The bolded part especially.

It irritates me too; it's so amazing to me that people don't realize that they've hated us for a long time. Heck, they're taught in school and at home to hate us yet there are those who claim their hatred is because we invaded Iraq. Their hatred for us goes back further than most realize and I'd much rather fight them in Iraq then to have them come to America and bomb schools, clubs, restaurants, sporting venues, malls......

Great post, all of it. The bolded part especially.

It irritates me too; it's so amazing to me that people don't realize that they've hated us for a long time. Heck, they're taught in school and at home to hate us yet there are those who claim their hatred is because we invaded Iraq. Their hatred for us goes back further than most realize and I'd much rather fight them in Iraq then to have them come to America and bomb schools, clubs, restaurants, sporting venues, malls......

 

 

No one I've seen has said this is a new phenomenon. I know that I, Trinity Alum, and H, to name a few, have mentioned the long history of poor Middle Eastern policy by administrations dating back decades and decades. It's funny that everyone thinks that because we disagree about whether we should have invaded Iraq, it's assumed we must not know anything about world politics or history. :lol:

No one I've seen has said this is a new phenomenon. I know that I, Trinity Alum, and H, to name a few, have mentioned the long history of poor Middle Eastern policy by administrations dating back decades and decades. It's funny that everyone thinks that because we disagree about whether we should have invaded Iraq, it's assumed we must not know anything about world politics or history. :lol:

Sadly, there are many that don't.

Sadly, there are many that don't.

 

You can't paint the whole group with the same brush. There are some very intelligent, very involved people (besides those of us here on BGP, of course) who feel that going into Iraq was a mistake.

 

There are just as many who are gungho and rah-rah about the war without understanding either the involvement of the US in the Middle East throughout history, or even the differences in religious beliefs.

 

There are just as many who can't tell the difference between a person from Iraq or a person from Khazicstan. Shoot! I work with a woman who thought Afghanistan was next to Cuba! She's for invading Cuba, by the way.

You can't paint the whole group with the same brush. There are some very intelligent, very involved people (besides those of us here on BGP, of course) who feel that going into Iraq was a mistake.

 

There are just as many who are gungho and rah-rah about the war without understanding either the involvement of the US in the Middle East throughout history, or even the differences in religious beliefs.

 

There are just as many who can't tell the difference between a person from Iraq or a person from Khazicstan. Shoot! I work with a woman who thought Afghanistan was next to Cuba! She's for invading Cuba, by the way.

:confused: What group?

Quite simply, finishing the job is seeing to it that a stable government with a military that can take on the terrorists in that region and control their own country is in place.

You seem to forget about Zarqawi. Remember what they found on his computer? The media and the activists crying how we had no right to be there fell right into the trap he set, his plan to create a civil war was easy really when left in their hands.

You didn’t answer the question; do you think we should pull out now?

 

The sad, simple truth is that we have created a colossal mess that lacks a good solution. Yes, that's right we created it. It didn't exist before we invaded. Iraq was a lot of things before the war, but a breeding ground for terrorists it was not. Heck, the consensus of our own intelligence community now says Iraq has become a rallying cry for Islamic extremists and that our involvement there has made our task of defeating terrorism more difficult (ref, the most recent National Intelligence Estimate).

 

So, should we pull out? I think we should be following the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, rather than trying the latest idea of a President who has no combat experience and has been wrong every single time about Iraq. Think about it, this President has absolutely had a free hand to conduct the Iraq war, a clean sheet of paper. He has gotten every Congressional funding request he has ever asked for. And yet four years into it, Iraq is no closer to being a stable democracy than it was years ago and our intelligence experts say we have basically strengthened anti-Western terrorist causes around the world by our involvement there.

 

I feel like these arguments have been made 1000 times, but with the passage of time, more and more of the American people have begun to see the light. Maybe in 5 or 10 years even the diehard Bush cheerleaders will join them.