Yes, I just thought I missed something!

 

Historically, alot of atrocities toward our fellow man have been justified by the misuse of religion, IMO.

 

The Crusades

The Irish/English situations over the course of history

Hitler's annihilation of the Jews

Ethnic cleansing ANYWHERE

Jihad

Slavery

Ku Klux Klan

Witch Trials

.......

How is that a cheap shot against Christians? You should re-read my post.

You imply that Christians use the Bible to hate people. Some who claim to be Christians and hate people do that. But for every Fred Phelps, I know thousands of Christians who are different than Mr. Phelps. Your post does not qualify but implies that us Christians hide behind the Bible to justify our hatred. A hatred of people THAT DOES NOT EXIST in the hearts of true Christians.

 

Also, there seems to be an unbelief among people that Christians must not or can not hate the sin but love the sinner. As in any sin, I hate to see them choosing to sin as they do. Same with adulterous spouses, lying business leaders or any other sins. I hate that they have chosen that path for them.

 

I hate the sin in my life that I battle everyday. Does that mean I hate myself?:confused:

 

THAT in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM means I hate the adulterous spouse or the lying business leader.

 

It means that I hate what they do and the actions of their life. And that would include homosexuals, men who cheat on their wives, wives who cheat on their husbands, people who sleep around and see how many conquests they can have, and etc, etc.

 

That is the Christianity of it. I can hate and should hate their actions while at the same time loving them.

 

It seems that people like to believe Christians cannot do that. If we hate their actions we MUST hate them. That is FAR FAR from the truth.

spindoc, my comments were a general statement, and not the result of any one poster's comments.

 

But, as HSSB so ably points out, exactly who's "truth" is the Truth?

 

People seem to forget that the vast majority of those that people use the Bible to condemn are Christians themselves, and are giving, compassionate, loving Christians at that?

 

I guess the basic question is this:

 

Is it our place as Christians to judge? Or is it God's?

Yes and Yes.

 

Eternal judgement is ONLY God's job. Meaning after that judgement the person has no chance to accept the Lord in their lives and their eternal placement is set. THat is God and ONLY God's job.

 

Jesus gave us instructions on if we have a problem with someone. (Can you have a problem with someone without casting judgement on them?) He said go to the alone and try and work it out. That doesn't work and take a friend as a witness. That doesn't work than remove them from the church. Could you remove someone from the church without passing a judgement on them?

 

I agree you can't pick and choose the Bible Scriptures you want to believe. Presently, the movement and I think influenced greatly by the PC of this country is to only look at the prostitute and the "those without sin cast the first stone." And they stop there because it fits what they want. To be tolerant and hands off and let people do what they want.

 

I cannot stop anyone but my children from doing things and that will only last a few more years. They want to do it, so be it. But I can and should cast a warning that what they want to do doesn't sit right with what is in the Bible.

 

I find no where in the Bible that Jesus says or indicates that we should just let people keep on sinning over and over and over and think that it is no big deal.

 

SHould I cast the first stone, TAKE A PERSON'S LIFE and cast eternal judgement on them. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!

 

But should I point out to them sin in their life. If it is a person that I am part of their lives (and Christians should strive to be part of all sinner's lives as Jesus did) and I believe I can effective witness to.....well if I don't, I am NOT doing the job that Jesus wants me to do.

 

Someone will say who appointed me the moral police. It is not the moral police but if this person in my life has never heard the message of Jesus Christ and I don't share it, when will they? Is it safe for me as a Christian to wash my hands of it and expect someone else down the road will pick up my slack?

Historically, alot of atrocities toward our fellow man have been justified by the misuse of religion, IMO.

 

The Crusades

The Irish/English situations over the course of history

Hitler's annihilation of the Jews

Ethnic cleansing ANYWHERE

Jihad

Slavery

Ku Klux Klan

Witch Trials

.......

Remember that Satan is the Prince of Lies. I believe he is cunning enough to use religion to further his purposes and weaken the effectiveness of Christians. Just as he used the apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for his nefarious purposes (think that is the first time nefarious has been used on BGP??), he uses good things today, twists them in our minds and lies to further his goal of having people join in the lake of fire for all of eternity.

 

I believe that is why we now have the Bible in a form that we can all read and study. I believe all of our actions has to be judged in the totality of the Word. I believe that is why God doesn't want us to tie our actions up into the views of a single man.

 

I believe that if our course of action is not clear from our studying of the Bible and prayers than it is not time for our course of action. And when it is God's time, it will be clear.

 

And lastly, I believe we are all imperfect beings, Christians as well as non-Christians who are going to mess up. I thank God for that or I would not be allowed to be a part of Christianity.

Is it one's place to point out the error of another's ways, or to provide an example?

Is it oen's place to point out the error of another's ways, or to provide an example?

Yes and yes. If not yes to the first question, why would Jesus tell us if we have a problem with someone to go to them first alone. That doesn't work then to take a friend as a witness.

 

Also that example we are going to provide is going to be an imperfect one full of messups. We are not perfect. So we can't possibly provide an example of what exactly we are supposed to do because we are all sinners and messups.

 

Should we strive for it? Absolutely. Can we achieve it? Absolutely not.

So, then I'm led to the following question:

 

If it is the responsibility of a Christian to judge (for instance) a person as homosexual as a deviant sinner, would it not stand to reason that a fellow Christian is responsible to point out that intolerance is also a sin?

So, then I'm led to the following question:

 

If it is the responsibility of a Christian to judge (for instance) a person as homosexual as a deviant sinner, would it not stand to reason that a fellow Christian is responsible to point out that intolerance is also a sin?

It depends on what you mean by intolerance. If I turn that person out of my life and have nothing to do with them, that might, MIGHT constitute a sin. There are instances that I could imagine that it does not.

 

If by intolerance you mean I don't pray for them, I don't try to help them, I don't have any care of them, than yes, I think it would be a sin and in the right of a Christian to point that out. I think it is best done by a person of respect in their lives but also has to be done on a national level to guide the society as a whole.

 

The two men who murdered Matthew Sheppard were absolutely 100% wrong in their actions and should be held accountable for those actions.

 

Let me point out that the intolerence I speak of is not alone to homosexuality. A person shows up at the church door and is a known alcoholic and the church slams the door in their face and that is wrong. A person shows up at the church door and is a known child predator and the church slams the church door in their face and that is wrong. Etc, Etc.

 

Also, that last example points to that we are to never judge mentality is wrong and mistaken. Unless you are willing to put that person in charge of the children's program.

 

And before someone gets their underwear in a wad, I AM NOT comparing homosexuality vs. child predators except in the mindset is it okay to judge one and not the other.

So, then I'm led to the following question:

 

If it is the responsibility of a Christian to judge (for instance) a person as homosexual as a deviant sinner, would it not stand to reason that a fellow Christian is responsible to point out that intolerance is also a sin?

I struggle with the word intolerance. If you mean hatred, which is what Hardaway displayed/verbalized, then it is obviously sin and should be pointed out by a Christian to the one that displays that behavior. But if tolerance means that I should not speak out about what is according to the Bible, sin, then I will be intolerant. The trick IMO is to handle these issues as Christ would and that is with His Love for the person, regardless of the sin. In our society, that is often a very gray line.

I struggle with the word intolerance. If you mean hatred, which is what Hardaway displayed/verbalized, then it is obviously sin and should be pointed out by a Christian to the one that displays that behavior. But if tolerance means that I should not speak out about what is according to the Bible, sin, then I will be intolerant. The trick IMO is to handle these issues as Christ would and that is with His Love for the person, regardless of the sin. In our society, that is often a very gray line.

And you forgot a very important statement that Jesus made in the "casting stones" story. He said to the young lady, "Go and sin no more."

I can see what both of you are saying, and I respect both of your views, and agree with what a lot what you are both saying.

 

Maybe because of my religious denomination, I feel that it is my duty as a Christian to live my life to emulate the Catholic beliefs, and that the teaching is for the Priests, etc. My role is not as an overt teacher, but as an example. As well, I believe in the absolution of the Rite of Pennance, which is a very personal, one-to-one Sacrament. I am not one to be able to assume the condition of any other person's eternal soul. I believe that to presume the state of Grace of another's soul.

Obviously, based on the First Amendment, Tim Hardaway, the Klan, the Dixie Chicks...anyone, has the right to say whatever they want.

 

However, are we really ready to applaud such opinions?

Are we really ready to crucify a man for stating an opinion that IMO is not on the same order as racial or gender discrimination?

 

Let's face it. If you don't embrace the Gay community, you better keep your mouth shut or the PC police will have their bloodhounds out tracking you down to obtain your apology.

I can see what both of you are saying, and I respect both of your views, and agree with what a lot what you are both saying.

 

Maybe because of my religious denomination, I feel that it is my duty as a Christian to live my life to emulate the Catholic beliefs, and that the teaching is for the Priests, etc. My role is not as an overt teacher, but as an example. As well, I believe in the absolution of the Rite of Pennance, which is a very personal, one-to-one Sacrament. I am not one to be able to assume the condition of any other person's eternal soul. I believe that to presume the state of Grace of another's soul.

So a person is beating their wife and kids and you don't feel able to tell them that Christ wouldn't be happy with them beating their wife and kids? That if they continue to beat their wife/children even though they know it is wrong, pointing out to them the Scripture where Jesus said woe to those who would harm a hair on a child's head (so it becomes Jesus telling them rather than RM telling them), you wouldn't feel capable of doing that.

Does Tim Hardaway have a right to voice his opinions, be them politically correct or not?--> absolutely

Does the general public have the right to condemn or support him for stating his opinions?--> absolutely

I find these type of occurences actually quite educational--they reinforce the importance of the almighty dollar. Hardaway comes out and says what, I believe, most of us can agree was what he really felt. Within hours, he is removed from the All-Star game broadcast, most of the sports specialty shows down here in MIA, and people are picketing outside the various businesses he owns down here-->where, if you haven't heard, a few homosexual citizens reside. All this happens and, amazingly, Hardaway apologizes and is "misquoted".

 

As for my personal opinion: I believe it shows the poor level of his business acumen and self control that he is not smart enough to know that voicing such extreme views on a national stage would be very damaging, not only to his public perception, but to his wallet.

Sure, Hardaway has a right to state his opinion...do I agree with him...NO!

I do not judge someone by sexual orientation, color of their skin, etc...

HOWEVER...I will say this...

Tim you got plenty of money....learn to speak..."YOU KNOW" !!!!!!