David McAtee Shooting

[TheDeuce]

There was a large group of police and National Guard outside. You think no one knew who they were? Just stop.

 

Didn't you initially say there was no gun and all he had was tongs?

 

Why does it matter who they are? You apparently think a couple pepper balls equals a death sentence regardless of who did it.

 

Were the cops and National Guard the only people outside?

 

I did initially say that, because that's all he had, OUTSIDE.

 

What is the justification for police instigating the altercation?

 

If McAtee shot at police with pepper balls, would you say they are justified in using lethal force?

[halfback20]

Were the cops and National Guard the only people outside?

 

I did initially say that, because that's all he had, OUTSIDE.

 

What is the justification for police instigating the altercation?

 

If McAtee shot at police with pepper balls, would you say they are justified in using lethal force?

 

I'm not playing your hypothetical game. That isn't what happened.

 

Police were called to that area to disperse crowds. It's hard to tell how many police are there and it's hard to tell how many civilians are there. I dont know what was said or happened, there is no audio and only one camera angle.

 

Police are allowed to use pepper balls to disperse crowds, but again, I don't know why they shot them at this crowd.

 

Regardless, it didn't justify his actions. He made a stupid decision I wouldn't recommend anyone make. He made an even worse decision coming back for a second shot at police when they were not doing anything at all. You think that was a good idea, or the right thing to do?

[TheDeuce]

I'm not playing your hypothetical game. That isn't what happened.

 

Police were called to that area to disperse crowds. It's hard to tell how many police are there and it's hard to tell how many civilians are there. I dont know what was said or happened, there is no audio and only one camera angle.

 

Police are allowed to use pepper balls to disperse crowds, but again, I don't know why they shot them at this crowd.

 

Regardless, it didn't justify his actions. He made a stupid decision I wouldn't recommend anyone make. He made an even worse decision coming back for a second shot at police when they were not doing anything at all. You think that was a good idea, or the right thing to do?

 

You won't "play my game" because you and everyone else knows you wouldn't use the same lethal vs. non-lethal argument in favor of David McAtee.

 

The police weren't justified in shooting at anyone. Anyone without a bias can see that. You won't lose your badge if you admit that, I promise. As long as we're arguing about what is justified and what isn't, that's where we start. Police don't shoot at the building, no incident.

 

You continue to assume McAtee knew it was the cops that were shooting. You just said yourself "It's hard to tell how many police are there and it's hard to tell how many civilians are there." But McAtee is supposed to know exactly who/what is shooting? How?

 

For the last time. Cops can't just go around shooting at whoever they want, whenever they want, and expecting nothing in return. You shoot at me, I'm shooting back. Unfortunately for David McAtee, he doesn't have the same protection cops have.

[Jumper_Dad]

Another way to look at it.

 

If I'm sitting on my front porch and the boys playing across the street shoot me with a paint ball, do I have the right to shoot at them with my Glock? While I'm shooting at them, is it ok if their father shoots back at me to protect them?

 

A few years ago, someone drove through our neighborhood shooting paintballs out of their car in every direction. If I had drawn my pistol and shot at the car, would that have been justified. Would a prosecutor and a jury say that was too strong of an reaction, absolutely. If one of my bullets killed a passenger in the car...I'm going to prison.

[TheDeuce]

Another way to look at it.

 

If I'm sitting on my front porch and the boys playing across the street shoot me with a paint ball, do I have the right to shoot at them with my Glock? While I'm shooting at them, is it ok if their father shoots back at me to protect them?

 

A few years ago, someone drove through our neighborhood shooting paintballs out of their car in every direction. If I had drawn my pistol and shot at the car, would that have been justified. Would a prosecutor and a jury say that was too strong of an reaction, absolutely. If one of my bullets killed a passenger in the car...I'm going to prison.

 

The difference in both of those situations is you can see exactly who and what is shooting at you.

[halfback20]

You won't "play my game" because you and everyone else knows you wouldn't use the same lethal vs. non-lethal argument in favor of David McAtee.

 

The police weren't justified in shooting at anyone. Anyone without a bias can see that. You won't lose your badge if you admit that, I promise. As long as we're arguing about what is justified and what isn't, that's where we start. Police don't shoot at the building, no incident.

 

You continue to assume McAtee knew it was the cops that were shooting. You just said yourself "It's hard to tell how many police are there and it's hard to tell how many civilians are there." But McAtee is supposed to know exactly who/what is shooting? How?

 

For the last time. Cops can't just go around shooting at whoever they want, whenever they want, and expecting nothing in return. You shoot at me, I'm shooting back. Unfortunately for David McAtee, he doesn't have the same protection cops have.

 

I'm not playing that game because it never happened. That's it.

 

Police were justified based on what I've seen, to defend themselves and others from someone shooting into a crowded area.

 

It's hard for me to see ON VIDEO the large group of police. I wasn't there. You realize that makes a difference, right? I can't hear anything and have one camera angle.

 

Still waiting, what justification did he have to shoot a second time? He stopped. They stopped shooting their paintball gun that sounds nothing like a real gun, he started shooting again. That is justified to you?

[TheDeuce]

If David McAtee (or anybody) shoots at police first, unprovoked, and the police kill them, that is 100% on David McAtee. That's a "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" situation.

 

It is my opinion that anyone who is shot at twice, especially unprovoked, has the right to defend themselves, regardless of where/who the shots are coming from.

[Jumper_Dad]

I don't know all the details of this case or why pepperballs were shot. Was it past curfew, was the crowd refusing to go inside, was anything said or done that caused the pepperballs to be fired?

 

Was this a rogue cop just wanting to pepperball anyone they got a chance to?

 

There are so many questions yet to be answered in this case, question that we here can only speculate on at this point.

[TheDeuce]

Police were justified based on what I've seen, to defend themselves and others from someone shooting into a crowded area.

 

Nobody was shooting at anybody when the cops fired TWICE at the building with pepper balls. I'm talking about what started the whole incident.

 

It's hard for me to see ON VIDEO the large group of police. I wasn't there. You realize that makes a difference, right? I can't hear anything and have one camera angle.

 

Still waiting, what justification did he have to shoot a second time? He stopped. They stopped shooting their paintball gun that sounds nothing like a real gun, he started shooting again. That is justified to you?

 

If you can't see the large group of police with four camera angles, how can you say that McAtee should have known it was the police shooting?

 

The justification he had for shooting was that he lives/works in a bad part of town and people get shot at all the time. He/they were shot at twice, he shot once and went back out a second time in which he was shot.

[halfback20]

Nobody was shooting at anybody when the cops fired TWICE at the building with pepper balls. I'm talking about what started the whole incident.

 

 

 

If you can't see the large group of police with four camera angles, how can you say that McAtee should have known it was the police shooting?

 

The justification he had for shooting was that he lives/works in a bad part of town and people get shot at all the time. He/they were shot at twice, he shot once and went back out a second time in which he was shot.

 

Again, the pepper gun does not sound anything like a real gun.

 

Also, again, i didn't have the advantage of being there. I can't hear anything, I can't look around. I dont hear what people are saying.

 

4 camera angles? I feel like I've only seen 2, maybe I'm mistaken. One inside, one outside.

 

What, in your opinion, justified him shooting a second time? I don't feel like you've said.

[TheDeuce]

Again, the pepper gun does not sound anything like a real gun.

 

Also, again, i didn't have the advantage of being there. I can't hear anything, I can't look around. I dont hear what people are saying.

 

4 camera angles? I feel like I've only seen 2, maybe I'm mistaken. One inside, one outside.

 

What, in your opinion, justified him shooting a second time? I don't feel like you've said.

 

People were shooting at his business and the people outside it. He didn't know who or what. That's his justification, in my opinion.

 

What, in your opinion, justified police shooting at people to start the altercation?

[halfback20]

People were shooting at his business and the people outside it. He didn't know who or what. That's his justification, in my opinion.

 

What, in your opinion, justified police shooting at people to start the altercation?

 

No one was shooting anything the second time he started shooting. So what justified the second round?

 

I dont know why the police fired pepper balls. It doesn't matter though to me. He can't defend minor property damage with deadly force.

[Jumper_Dad]

The difference in both of those situations is you can see exactly who and what is shooting at you.

 

I understand. Your assumption is that he didn't know it was the police or national guard shooting the paintballs. But unless he was deaf, he knew they weren't firearms being shot, no paintball gun sounds remotely like a real gun. If he knew it was paintball guns, then firing back at anyone with a real gun is an overreaction.

 

Here is a scenario that could explain it from both sides.

 

Officers tell crowd to breakup they refuse, paintballs are fired and crowd runs inside.

 

David not knowing what happened runs to the door with his gun to protect his patrons.

 

Police see David pointing gun out the door at them, retreat, take cover and fire at man pointing a gun at them.

 

David hears, sees gunfire...can't see police/ng behind cover and just fires his gun out the door, not knowing if it's the police or possibly looters.

 

Police/NG return fire striking and killing David McAtee.

 

Maybe David fired first after the paintballs and police/ng then returned fire...I haven't seen a definitive answer on who fired actual firearms first.

[John Anthony]

No one was shooting anything the second time he started shooting. So what justified the second round?

 

I dont know why the police fired pepper balls. It doesn't matter though to me. He can't defend minor property damage with deadly force.

 

This is true.

[TheDeuce]

No one was shooting anything the second time he started shooting. So what justified the second round?

 

I dont know why the police fired pepper balls. It doesn't matter though to me. He can't defend minor property damage with deadly force.

 

I already told you what his justification was.

 

Is it ideal? Of course not. In a perfect world, he wouldn't feel the need to shoot back at all. West Louisville isn't that perfect world, but that's for a whole separate discussion.

 

Police initiated this. Period. It doesn't matter to me why he shot back after that.