For any person who values thinking, you owe it to yourself to devote 15 short minutes of your time to listen to these two brilliant thinkers discuss the existence of God. You may be surprised by some of what you here, then again you may not. If thinking deeply about spiritual matters isn't your cup of tea, there are always 1980's videos by the Human League("Don't You Want Me Baby") or The Fixx ("Saved by Zero") that await your attention instead. Both of those I like, btw.

 

But seriously, I would like a few of my fellow deep thinkers to invest a few minutes and listen to this important and thought-provoking discussion and then comment on what you hear in the video . I want to engage you in conversation about what these men have to say about God and Science. Thank you in advance for your time and your thoughtful contributions.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB90bBL2pxk

I actually listened to all 14-plus minutes of the discussion, and came to the conclusion that these folks have gone well beyond the concept of God and are trying to prove him on paper. And if they can't prove him, he must not exist.

 

By experience and observations, I do believe that something, or some being must be responsible for the order of the universe, the fish in the seas, the wonder of the design of the human body, intelligence, and a cycle of life and death, winter and summer, good and evil.

 

I do not believe that this God is responsible for our every action.

We are put here to fend for ourselves. If we drink polluted water, eat contaminated foods, or breath toxic air we are likely to get cancer. I don't believe that God gives us cancer. We are victims of our environment. I don't believe that it is God's will if you drive your car off of the road and get killed, or get swept away by a tsunami (sp) it is an unfortunate incident.

 

If there is a judgement after life, I'm sure God looks at a 19 year old who OD'd, died in a car wreck or contracted a fatal disease, and in his own words says, "What are you doing here already." And when told that you were killed in an auto accident, he must respond with "That's a bummer."

 

I do also believe that God lives within you. Your own conscience might be your link to God. Your own conscience might be what plagues you for all eternity into a state of guilt (eternal damnation), or cause you to be eternally euphoric (heaven) because it knows that you lived a good life. Who better than yourself to judge you???

 

As for the galaxies and races and the the cycles of the sun and the moon, I will leave that to someone far more studied than myself. I'm happy with my own concept of God, will endeavor to live the Golden Rule and be prepared for whatever comes my way in the afterlife, and if there is none at all, nor any reincarnation, that's just fine with me.

I actually listened to all 14-plus minutes of the discussion, and came to the conclusion that these folks have gone well beyond the concept of God and are trying to prove him on paper. And if they can't prove him, he must not exist.

 

By experience and observations, I do believe that something, or some being must be responsible for the order of the universe, the fish in the seas, the wonder of the design of the human body, intelligence, and a cycle of life and death, winter and summer, good and evil.

 

I do not believe that this God is responsible for our every action.

We are put here to fend for ourselves. If we drink polluted water, eat contaminated foods, or breath toxic air we are likely to get cancer. I don't believe that God gives us cancer. We are victims of our environment. I don't believe that it is God's will if you drive your car off of the road and get killed, or get swept away by a tsunami (sp) it is an unfortunate incident.

 

If there is a judgement after life, I'm sure God looks at a 19 year old who OD'd, died in a car wreck or contracted a fatal disease, and in his own words says, "What are you doing here already." And when told that you were killed in an auto accident, he must respond with "That's a bummer."

 

I do also believe that God lives within you. Your own conscience might be your link to God. Your own conscience might be what plagues you for all eternity into a state of guilt (eternal damnation), or cause you to be eternally euphoric (heaven) because it knows that you lived a good life. Who better than yourself to judge you???

 

As for the galaxies and races and the the cycles of the sun and the moon, I will leave that to someone far more studied than myself. I'm happy with my own concept of God, will endeavor to live the Golden Rule and be prepared for whatever comes my way in the afterlife, and if there is none at all, nor any reincarnation, that's just fine with me.

 

Thanks for watching the video. You make some very interesting and very good points. I particularly like your God-Conscience theory. God as a collective consciousness is an idea I have given some credence to before. I do think we benefit if we align our inner beings with that higher consciousness or God-Source. I think maybe that God- Conscience connection is what allows us to know when something is in alignment with All That Is Good and when it is just the opposite.

 

deGrasse Tyson and Kaku understandably are looking to physics to solve the God question. I thought Kaku's reference to Einstein's "two types of gods" was interesting. Einstein rejected the personal God but was receptive to the God of Spinoza and Leibnitz - the God of harmony, beauty, simplicity & elegance. Kaku points out, correctly, that science is based on decidable statements while the question of whether God exists or whether the universe has order or purpose is undecidable. He points out that we can no more disprove the existence of a unicorn somewhere in the universe than we can disprove God. Is there a unicorn somewhere in the universe? Maybe. Maybe not. Because there is no scientific evidence of God, no mathematical formula as yet that describes the mind of God, does that mean there isn't some point or purpose to the universe? Not necessarily. We just don't know. Anyone who says he/she knows the answer for certain is being intellectually dishonest and just relying on what he wants to believe.We all should keep our minds open enough to accept the possibility that God, in whatever form , may or may not exist.

I really don't know what else I could add to this discussion as I'm pretty much on board with the thoughts that these guys have presented. Pretty much the way that I've viewed it since allowing myself to freely ponder the topic, which was an evolving process for me from childhood to adulthood considering that which had initially been offered to me as "concrete" explanations.

 

I personally cannot prove or disprove the existence of a god, so while I'm fine with others believing what they do, for they no doubt should freely be entitled to do so, I'm left with not much other than the realization that I'm limited in what I can know for certain, but remain open to learn if by chance there is anyway that I can.

 

Humanity is indeed part of this universe, and while significant as anything else, I can't say that we are the center of it, and that we are entitled to, or even capable of knowing all.

 

Sure we like to have order in our understanding, and because of, for many, they've arrived at conclusions of the existence of a god, and for others the conclusion that god doesn't exist. I'm personally left with not knowing, and perhaps the possibility that I am incapable of knowing.

 

Certainly this approach doesn't satisfy the need for an answer, and that can be deeply aggravating, yet for me to breath easier about it I've spent a considerable amount of my days trying to convince myself to live with, and accept my limitations.

 

As I have alluded to many times within these discussions, I have had personal experiences related to feeling the presence of comforting messages often times through dreams but not exclusively, from deceased loved ones regarding eternal love and a "soul" type existence beyond our human flesh.

 

While unexplainable, for me they've been powerful and significant, so much that If I'm being honest with myself in my quest for understanding, I cannot discard them as merely a figment of my imagination, while at the same time accepting the possibility that they might be.

 

I do like what how these guys in the video have presented their ideas for it's more inline with the way I try to logically approach the topic. They come to no conclusion, which is exactly how I view it. It perhaps may be an uncomfortable assessment for those in need of a concrete answer, but I believe that they sincerely have sought out an explanation void of fantasy.

 

Even with my personal quest for a "logical" explanation, I might have to accept the possibility that even "logic" cannot help to contribute to solving the question, for while there undoubtedly is an answer, my capability for knowing may not exist.

Yes.

Though he's not necessarily coming from a scientific perspective as much as he is straddling a buddhist one, Alan Watt's philosophical examination of our existence within this universe intrigues me, and I assume that it could be said that his certain vocal delivery had a way to excite one's emotions, which he undoubtedly was able to do, but I just enjoy his general take that even if our existence really has no particular purpose, that in itself doesn't make it any less fascinating.

 

His passion for the unknown, and his capacity to explore ideas, and to deliver them in refreshing and thought provoking ways ultimately for me came across, considering that science has no complete certainty of the answer either, from a similar place as science however with a bit more philosophical expression, and more so on the level of the common man whether he has been intently schooled within the halls of scientific research or not.

 

I might not necessarily hang on his every word as being infallible, and even if I don't I can't begrudge his assessment for it's always interesting nonetheless, and if I sense any holes within his logic it challenges me to ponder just how I might view what he discusses, and at the end of it all I just simply find his approach therapeutic when coming from a place of trying to accept one's limitations and uncertainty.

 

I watched the video. A few thoughts of mine: No one can prove by scientific experiment if God exists or doesn't exist. After all we are material creatures living in a material universe, whereas if God exists, it is said he is spirit and we don't have any instruments that can detect spirit, let alone examine its nature.

 

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8–9)

 

Now to the question they debated-Does God Exist? It reminds of a story I read:

 

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'

'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.'

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.

He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: 'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.

'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'

'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'

'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

Interesting video, I really enjoy those two.

If you want another interesting video, find the one where Neil deGrasse Tyson has a Jesuit priest as a guest. It may have been an episode of StarTalk.

While I'm fine with Degrasse's assessment on things, and this is just my particular preference of course, but I don't have the patience to listen to him for more than a few seconds simply because of his bombast, sarcasm, and him always thinking that he is funny while obviously being in love with listening to his own voice. #annoying

I watched the video. A few thoughts of mine: No one can prove by scientific experiment if God exists or doesn't exist. After all we are material creatures living in a material universe, whereas if God exists, it is said he is spirit and we don't have any instruments that can detect spirit, let alone examine its nature.

 

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8–9)

 

Now to the question they debated-Does God Exist? It reminds of a story I read:

 

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'

'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.'

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.

He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: 'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.

'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'

'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'

'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

 

Thank you for your thoughts and for watching the video. The question of God allowing bad things to happen to good people is certainly an interesting topic and one that I have thought a lot about over the years. I still struggle with it at times. I tend to lay the blame for bad things on people and not God. I think when we focus our thoughts on bad things, the Universe will bring us bad things. Humans, I believe, have the capacity to choose thoughts that reflect the mind of God. Some, unfortunately, choose thoughts that set them on a course that diverges from the mind of God. The choice of what thoughts to think is ours alone. It's on us, not God.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willing to wade into deep choppy waters to discuss whether or not God exists. It takes both courage and confidence, plus a willingness to admit that you don't have all the answers and that lack of certainty is a part of our existence. The only certainty is uncertainty. Not only do I like learning new things, I like the fact that there are things I don't know and don't understand. I like mystery and our magnificent universe is full of mystery.