Thanks to anyone who tried to answer my question.

 

For those who either did not grasp it, or felt it to be too daunting to tackle, that's fine, but trust me, I chose my words carefully to follow a clear line of thinking, and am pretty sure that even in its wordiness, it was in my most honest assessment, pretty straightforward enough to be easily understood. I don't view myself as being highly intelligent, but I find many on this site to be, so I have to believe that my words, and their meaning are not above anyone's head.

 

I in no way want to step on anyone's belief system, for it's most certainly everyone's right to believe in whatever it is that works for them to lead them to wherever they hope to be. I most certainly have my own spiritual leanings and hopes, and although I can't completely define them and label them, nor do I feel a need to, I have to award myself a certain amount of self honesty that even within my own leanings there's a great amount of "subjectivity" attached to these hopes.

 

Although all religious beliefs are "subjective" and unprovable, I personally can't disprove them either, so no matter how "objective" I hope to be, no amount of objectivity is going to award me with the answers either, so in that we're all truly at a stalemate, just as humans have always been. Perhaps the future can prove otherwise.

 

Jumper_Dad's explanation to my question boiled down to "faith", and nothing against "faith", but I have to hope that even people of "faith" have the understanding within that "faith" is a "subjective" thing.

 

He went on to say "As far as "Cold Hard Truth", the Bible is pretty clear that we will never have all of the answers that we seek".

 

Analyzing that comment as objectively as I possibly can:

 

1. The Bible does indeed exist... can't deny this.

 

2. It being considered the infallible guide for giving us the "Cold Hard Truth" even in that we will never have all of the answers that we seek...is in itself a "subjective" concept. We know that it was written by humans. It has been passed along for centuries as having been written by humans inspired by God. Because humans have made this claim, it's hard, if one is being honest, to see it any other way than "subjective" and debatable, whether or not it could ever truly be proven.

 

There's no doubt that existing on this planet with no real understanding or hope can present people with a cold lonely feeling that this might just be all there is.

 

That's where I believe "faith" comes from to help people alleviate that feeling of emptiness. If getting through life with "faith" is something that helps someone get through this life with more peace of mind, and more happily, then who am I to try to deny anyone of that?

 

If I truly had the "truth" to present to them, then it might be different, but I don't, so just as much as I might think that they are living in subjective harmless delusion, I don't have anything concrete to offer them otherwise, so it's only right that I just approach it as "live and let live".

 

We all have to get through this life one way or another, and even I hold out a certain amount of hope within my own personal spiritual leanings that helps to alleviate even some of my own empty feelings related to whether or not this is all there is, or if I'll ever have a better understanding.

 

I promise you that this is not me being rebellious. I have as much passion for the truth as those who are already certain that they have found the proper avenue that will lead them to it. For there own good, I certainly hope that they're on the right path.

 

To me, a realist, It tends to be very important to discern whether or not a concept is "objective" or "subjective". Perhaps I've assumed too much to think that this "truth filter" is important or necessary to others.

 

Religious beliefs in themselves are "subjective" unprovable concepts, but for those where faith in these concepts are of the utmost importance, then dwelling on whether or not they're being "subjective" or "objective" may present some with undesirable doubts in the very thing that is keeping them at peace in this world.

 

I'm guessing that for this very reason, the weighing of concepts for some is not a priority, to help them avoid confusion and doubts.

 

The simple fact that some misunderstand my questioning with regard "objectivity" or "subjectivity" spells out clearly that within human behavior and religious beliefs, that it would appear that it might be discouraged for some to entertain such analysis, even to the point that the concept of realistic analysis is a foreign thought to many, where to others it seems like a simple logical approach even if the answers are never evident.

Edited February 24, 201511 yr by B-Ball-fan

Wait. Did you really just compare Bill Cosby to ISIS and Hitler?! :facepalm:

 

 

Yes. With tongue firmly planted in cheek. Bill is a mess, though. (I wish Murphy had done the Jeopardy skit as Cos). As far as being comparable to ISIS or Hitler, maybe Dick Cheney

Even though this life may very well be all there is, why does that have to be gloom and doom ? Life can be pretty wonderful here. Make the best of it and enjoy everyday. Enjoy every sandwich. We don't need to conjure up fantastical visions of an afterlife when we are busy enjoying the only life we know we have.

Even though this life may very well be all there is, why does that have to be gloom and doom ? Life can be pretty wonderful here. Make the best of it and enjoy everyday. Enjoy every sandwich. We don't need to conjure up fantastical visions of an afterlife when we are busy enjoying the only life we know we have.

 

You can't do both? You can't enjoy your life and look forward to the next?

Even though this life may very well be all there is, why does that have to be gloom and doom ? Life can be pretty wonderful here. Make the best of it and enjoy everyday. Enjoy every sandwich. We don't need to conjure up fantastical visions of an afterlife when we are busy enjoying the only life we know we have.

 

There is the fundamental miss in your reasoning, Christians aren't all "Gloom and Doom." You need to get out of the Old Testament and into the New Testament. The life of Jesus is about his teaching Love and not having fear. Knowing Jesus as our savior means that we do face each day with joy in our heart. You know you have this life, I know I have this one and another one in Heaven and I plan on fully enjoying both.

All we know is that we have this life. Absolutely no one can say they know they have anything after this one. It's a nice thought but nice thoughts don't make it true.

All we know is that we have this life. Absolutely no one can say they know they have anything after this one. It's a nice thought but nice thoughts don't make it true.

 

Absolutely no one can say there isn't life after death either.

Absolutely no one can say there isn't life after death either.

 

True enough. I know some religions, such as Hinduism, believe in reincarnation. Anyone believe along those lines?

Awesome thread. Let me throw this out there....

 

Sin can be a verb. An action. I stole a candy bar from the store. This is a sin action. I broke one of God's laws. This is the sin that most people think of and associate with being saved. Most reason that to be saved from sin is to somehow stop the sin actions (verbs). This would involve mastering your behavior which is impossible. It leads to a thought that says saved people don't sin, unsaved people will sin. It becomes a performance based lifestyle, and quit honestly it wears people out. There is really no hope in it at all. What man can live without sin (verb/action) and master their performance and behavior? NONE! This way of thinking leads to a religion where the point of reference is on self. The Apostle Paul made a very powerful statement to those who were stuck in this self saving, performance driven, unrealistic hopeless, religious mindset.....IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COULD BE ATTAINED BY KEEPING LAWS, THEN CHRIST DIED IN VAIN!

 

Here is where it gets really good.

 

Sin can also be a noun. And many times in the bible, this is how the word sin is being used...as a noun. Sin as a noun is obviously completely different. Sin as a noun is not the action we commit...such as stealing lying, and cheating. It is sin as a condition. It is a position. It is an identity.

Sin is most simply defined as man's declaration of independence from God and a natural inclination for self as boss. All humans are born in sin, the noun. Let me give an example....a newborn baby does not think of mommy's lack of sleep and screams for something to eat and a diaper change. That baby is lord of its ring. You don't have to teach children to be selfish, they will be selfish naturally. You have to teach them, threaten them, give them laws...etc to curb the selfishness and create positive behavior. This is proof of mans condition of sin or condition of independence from God.

 

Man does not need a another behavior manipulator like religion, laws, threats of dad's spankin's, jail etc. to try to deter or control the verb/action sin. What man needs is an answer for the sin condition (noun)

 

Now we see the need for a Savior. A sinless God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, who is a worthy sacrifice for sin (noun)

 

Christ did not just die on a cross, He became sin (noun) and died because of it. In doing so he defeated sin (noun) and in His resurrection He provided new life.

 

Faith in Christ is not just a method of behavior modification or sin verb deterrents! Faith in Christ is the answer for our sin condition (noun)

 

When I trusted Christ it was not that I decided to try to live like he wanted me to live...IT WAS TO RECIEVE HIS LIFE IN ME! When I trusted Christ the sin condition, sin part of me was crucified/killed in Christ, a new identity, heart, condition was born in me!

 

This is the miracle of salvation! It is not a turnover a new leaf, try harder, self help thing....It is a Christ changed me from the inside out thing. He made me a new person. He changed my "want to"...I no longer want to do what I did before. He gave me a new heart! He gave me his love!

 

Yes a Christian can screw up...and still commit the sin (verb) HOWEVER, it is not who he/she is! Inside...in their spirit...they are holy, blameless, forgiven, cleansed, righteous, and lovable. THIS IS NOT BASED ON THEIR PERFORMANCE...IT IS BASED ON THE WORK OF CHRIST! It is not my earning it by my behavior...it is a miraculous heart change, identity change that happened when I threw myself before Christ and came to the end of my independent self...surrendered being boss!

 

I think this is a big mistake of most Christianity...we teach a performance based self help thing that only eliminates the awareness and understanding for our need for Christ as MORE than just a forgiver of our sin actions and an example to follow. Most importantly, he is the One that comes to live inside of us, fill us with his Spirit, fill us with His love, and live through us everyday....of course as we surrender, trust him, and allow Him to.

 

EXAMPLE: If I asked you to paint the Sistine Chapel, what would it look like? Some good, mostly bad. Stick figures? No depth? Bad spacing? Lifeless?

 

What if we could put the spirit of Michealangelo in you and you were just a vessel? What if the inner person of you was EXCHANGED for Michaelangelo's spirit? Now your the same body, the same soul, the same personality, however now you find yourself doing something you thought was impossible! That is awesome and as good of example I can find. It is no longer I who live, but Christ that lives in me, and the life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. Galatians 2:20 Notice it does not say I now live by fear, pressure, condemnation, or performance. It says I live by faith, trusting Christ in me to live His life through me!

 

This is the hope of the gospel. There is no hope in a performance based salvation. There is no such thing. Again...if righteousness could be attained by keeping the law, then Christ died in vain!

 

Christ coming into your life by your opening your heart, Christ coming in and exchanging our sin condition for His love condition, Christ making us a new person, CHRIST IN US...This is the hope of glory!

Thanks trip good stuff!

Thanks trip good stuff!

 

:thumb: Here is some scripture references that tie in.

 

This was all prophesied by the prophet Ezekial....

 

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

And of course Paul preached the same great news.....

 

"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

And then vs 5-11 of my personal favorite in Romans 6.....

 

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Science friction -- what are your thoughts on the Bible -- not about God , but the book . Is it real ? Who made that stuff up ? Why did they write it ?

Science friction ?

Paging SF . Paging SF

Paging SF . Paging SF

 

I'm guessing that "SF" is not dodging you but just hasn't seen your question yet. Judging by the history of his posts, I'll assume that this is one that he would jump on in a heartbeat, and as for those looking at it objectively, the answer is an easy one.

 

Although the question was not directed at me, if you don't mind I'll take a stab at it.

 

The Bible does indeed exist, written and compiled by men over a lengthy period of time (with various versions), claimed by men to be the infallible inspired word of God.

 

Looking at that objectively, we have to question the validity of those making the claim of its infallibility, and what would give them the power to say so, being that they are merely men, just like you and me, and also which version is the definitive one?

 

When humans follow the words of the Bible as infallible, it is taken on faith because there's no solid proof that the claims of its infallibility are true. If it works for some as a guide in life to live by, that's certainly fine, but when humans push on to others its infallibility as if they have concrete knowledge that it is, then that would be categorized as illogical, delusional, a mighty stretch, and presumptuous.

 

Is it the infallible inspired word of God?

 

It might be, but no human on planet earth can prove that with complete certainty.

 

Does its unprovability mean that the contents can't have relevant messages for some to live by?

 

No... If people feel that their lives are enriched by the contents of the Bible, then it's certainly their right to read it, and live by it.