Most the things you listed I'm fine with. I've listed my main concern a million times. That is the over use of swat teams and no knock warrants for non violent crimes.

 

I could list 100 cases of how it's been misused in seconds and I no it won't sway you. Still doesn't change the fact it's a major concern for millions of Americans who are pro police.

So your upset with tactics and not most of the equipment? That I can better understand.

 

In short the only thing that upsets you is SWAT Team No Knock Warrants?

 

As for using special response teams there have been mistakes, but they have also saved untold lives. If you could predict when non-violent criminals were going to stay non-violent that would be great. But simple delivery of (non-arrest) court papers have resulted in deputies being gunned down. I think due diligence should be done before no-knocks are used, but even you would have to admit there are times in which for the safety of everyone involved they are needed.

 

Anytime an innocent person is injured or killed it is a tragedy and every reasonable precaution needs to be taken to prevent this from happening, no one believes it shouldn't be.

 

BTW you said Most of the equipment, which piece of equipment did I mention that you would take away?

...

So your upset with tactics and not most of the equipment? That I can better understand.

 

In short the only thing that upsets you is SWAT Team No Knock Warrants?

 

As for using special response teams there have been mistakes, but they have also saved untold lives. If you could predict when non-violent criminals were going to stay non-violent that would be great. But simple delivery of (non-arrest) court papers have resulted in deputies being gunned down. I think due diligence should be done before no-knocks are used, but even you would have to admit there are times in which for the safety of everyone involved they are needed.

 

Anytime an innocent person is injured or killed it is a tragedy and every reasonable precaution needs to be taken to prevent this from happening, no one believes it shouldn't be.

 

BTW you said Most of the equipment, which piece of equipment did I mention that you would take away?

 

Some of the vehicles for smaller police forces bug me. In a city like NYC or for a regional strike force I get the need because of National defense reasons but most American police forces should not have them.

 

You'll never hear me complain about semi auto weapons or bullet proof vests.

Some of the vehicles for smaller police forces bug me. In a city like NYC or for a regional strike force I get the need because of National defense reasons but most American police forces should not have them.

 

You'll never hear me complain about semi auto weapons or bullet proof vests.

 

But again just because you don't like those vehicles don't make them unconstitutional.

 

I know a lot of people get tore up about small departments having HumVees for example...but in times of snow or tornadoes and other disasters they are invaluable.

 

I don't think many "Small" departments have Bearcats or MRAPS unless there is a local national security need. (For example it would not shock me if Oak Ridge had those available for use) But I'm sure there are some exceptions. Even then there are times when a bullet resistant vehicle would be needed to approach a house or other location due to the potential of encountering gunfire. Again that's not infringing upon any ones rights, just protecting the officers Right to Live.

But again just because you don't like those vehicles don't make them unconstitutional.

 

I know a lot of people get tore up about small departments having HumVees for example...but in times of snow or tornadoes and other disasters they are invaluable.

 

I don't think many "Small" departments have Bearcats or MRAPS unless there is a local national security need. (For example it would not shock me if Oak Ridge had those available for use) But I'm sure there are some exceptions. Even then there are times when a bullet resistant vehicle would be needed to approach a house or other location due to the potential of encountering gunfire. Again that's not infringing upon any ones rights, just protecting the officers Right to Live.

 

If your comfortable with it that's you. In the constitution we aren't suppose to have military occupying domestic soil . Local forces using military vehicles on U.S. citizens makes me uncomfortable because it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the law. If police forces had them solely to fight terrorism on a local level I could be swayed but using against citizens is not something I'm comfortable with.

 

But like I said my main concern is use of no knock warrants and swat for non violent offenses which continues to increase each year. I could pull up multiple examples of it being used for lack of paying child support. Not comfortable at all.

If your comfortable with it that's you. In the constitution we aren't suppose to have military occupying domestic soil . Local forces using military vehicles on U.S. citizens makes me uncomfortable because it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the law. If police forces had them solely to fight terrorism on a local level I could be swayed but using against citizens is not something I'm comfortable with.

 

But like I said my main concern is use of no knock warrants and swat for non violent offenses which continues to increase each year. I could pull up multiple examples of it being used for lack of paying child support. Not comfortable at all.

 

When did the military take over the Command of US Law Enforcement?

 

What Vehicles are they "Using Against Citizens" and how are they using them that violates the constitution or scares you? The only thing the police have are some armored vehicles that are not offensive in nature. Are there officers with guns on them, yes. Would you be happier if the same officers came up in thin walled horse trailers.

 

Yeah I know some jack legged sheriff in Georgia or Carolina got his hands on an amtrack and put a machine gun on it but let me know when a police department starts firing tank rounds into a house or brings in an Apache Helicopter to strafe the crowd.

 

You being afraid of mean looking trucks is no different that the far (and not so far) left being afraid of mean looking guns.

 

NEVER NEVER think that any arrest is routine, officers are attacked and killed or injured as much on what they assume is a misdemeanor contact as a felony contact.

 

When "SWAT" or special teams like that are used to arrest dead beat dads it is usually part of warrant round up where multiple offenders with multiple outstanding warrants are rounded up and dead beat dads are just some of those being arrested. They don't roll SWAT out for a single dead beat dad unless there is an under lying reason to.

When did the military take over the Command of US Law Enforcement?

 

What Vehicles are they "Using Against Citizens" and how are they using them that violates the constitution or scares you? The only thing the police have are some armored vehicles that are not offensive in nature. Are there officers with guns on them, yes. Would you be happier if the same officers came up in thin walled horse trailers.

 

Yeah I know some jack legged sheriff in Georgia or Carolina got his hands on an amtrack and put a machine gun on it but let me know when a police department starts firing tank rounds into a house or brings in an Apache Helicopter to strafe the crowd.

 

You being afraid of mean looking trucks is no different that the far (and not so far) left being afraid of mean looking guns.

 

NEVER NEVER think that any arrest is routine, officers are attacked and killed or injured as much on what they assume is a misdemeanor contact as a felony contact.

 

When "SWAT" or special teams like that are used to arrest dead beat dads it is usually part of warrant round up where multiple offenders with multiple outstanding warrants are rounded up and dead beat dads are just some of those being arrested. They don't roll SWAT out for a single dead beat dad unless there is an under lying reason to.

 

By the time we could let you know that this has occurred, it will be too late. That's kind of the point or the argument, if people don't express their concern about the law enforcement that they pay to protect them, where does the line get drawn and by whom ?

 

I'm not anti-police, but I believe that when we arm a group of citizens and authorize them to conduct enforcement of the law we have to be constantly vigilant that enforcement does not creep. I don't see anyone saying different.

 

I believe we are seeing more and more militarization through the addition of military based tactics and equipment, and we should exercise caution in how that develops.

 

By the time we could let you know that this has occurred, it will be too late. That's kind of the point or the argument, if people don't express their concern about the law enforcement that they pay to protect them, where does the line get drawn and by whom ?

 

I'm not anti-police, but I believe that when we arm a group of citizens and authorize them to conduct enforcement of the law we have to be constantly vigilant that enforcement does not creep. I don't see anyone saying different.

 

I believe we are seeing more and more militarization through the addition of military based tactics and equipment, and we should exercise caution in how that develops.

 

I agree there should be oversight, that's what the local elected mayors and city councils are for.

 

We aren't arming a bunch if jack legs down at the local poolhall, police officers go through a lengthy training process in nearly every dept in the country. So don't act we are just passing out guns to everyone and giving them a badge.

 

So as it stands today what would you take away from police... please be specific what equipment should be taken away?

 

Which new military tactics worry you?

I'm not as focused on the equipment as the approach to community policing. My opinion is that our local law enforcement, many of whom we know personally, have gotten away from the community part of the police work.

 

To try to be specific... I see no reason for 2 - 3 officers, be they city, county or sheriff departments, to be at a high school basketball game in black, rip-stop fatigues. Sends the wrong message IMO. I see no reason for a small city to have invested well over $150k in a "tactical response vehicle" that includes upwards of $15k in graphics on the side promoting policing. I could understand this if maybe the County High School were within the city limits, but it's not. I also see no reason that small departments are actively pursuing reinforced incident "bunkers" for themselves and their families in the event of an incident (another story behind this one).

 

I'm not concerned with flak vests, I'm not sure about weaponry, but I do know if as a public safety official you are not , or do not appear approachable, you are less effective in that role. There is a lack of relationship amongst police and the community with which they serve, not all, but overall.

 

I would think that some of that money could be better spent on cameras and recording devices in interrogation rooms, so at least there is some evidence that questionning of suspects was done legally. Maybe body cameras for traffic stops are a good idea.

 

It really is not so much about equipment as attitude, and that is hard to quantify, but easy to recognize.

 

For the record: No knock warrants in small towns I do not believe are a good idea based on the intel gathering process in many of these cases.

And you could still have an arrest on your record, time spent in jail, a mugshot online, etc. despite all of that.

 

What alternative do you propose? When you tell a cop you do not authorize a search w/o probable cause and the cop still goes through with the search, do you have a better solution than just let the search happen knowing legally nothing will stick? I certainly would not recommend getting phsyical with the cop to prevent him/her from searching the car.

I'm not as focused on the equipment as the approach to community policing. My opinion is that our local law enforcement, many of whom we know personally, have gotten away from the community part of the police work.

 

To try to be specific... I see no reason for 2 - 3 officers, be they city, county or sheriff departments, to be at a high school basketball game in black, rip-stop fatigues. Sends the wrong message IMO. I see no reason for a small city to have invested well over $150k in a "tactical response vehicle" that includes upwards of $15k in graphics on the side promoting policing. I could understand this if maybe the County High School were within the city limits, but it's not. I also see no reason that small departments are actively pursuing reinforced incident "bunkers" for themselves and their families in the event of an incident (another story behind this one).

 

I'm not concerned with flak vests, I'm not sure about weaponry, but I do know if as a public safety official you are not , or do not appear approachable, you are less effective in that role. There is a lack of relationship amongst police and the community with which they serve, not all, but overall.

 

I would think that some of that money could be better spent on cameras and recording devices in interrogation rooms, so at least there is some evidence that questionning of suspects was done legally. Maybe body cameras for traffic stops are a good idea.

 

It really is not so much about equipment as attitude, and that is hard to quantify, but easy to recognize.

 

For the record: No knock warrants in small towns I do not believe are a good idea based on the intel gathering process in many of these cases.

What do you want to see that you would consider Community Policing?

 

Officers are in many cases hired by the school to be there, if they pay for 3 then that's on the school.

As far as not liking their clothing, really? Black BDU's are a problem for you...You do realize that BDU's are just pants with lots of pockets right? Our local Police Dept has black/darkblue uniforms and in most cases they were BDU types of uniforms on patrol...and guess what 99% of people don't realize they aren't wearing the old style uniforms. Do you know why police officers like wearing them...they are COMFORTABLE!!!

 

$150K for a vehicle? Maybe at large departments, if a small one has one it was either from a free govt program for surplus equipment or was purchased with forfeiture funds which may only be spent on equipment. $15K for a sticker package :no: maybe $1,500 not $15,000 BTW do you complain when local small town fire dept spends $800K on a firetruck they use maybe a couple a dozen times a year?

 

Doomsday bunkers for families of Law Enforcement...please share a link that's the first I've heard of that.

 

There was a recent case where an escaped convict was known to be in a local trailer and was thought to have guns he had a history of violence towards police...should officers have knocked on the door and given him time to get a gun before going in to get him and take him by surprise?

What do you want to see that you would consider Community Policing?

 

Officers are in many cases hired by the school to be there, if they pay for 3 then that's on the school.

As far as not liking their clothing, really? Black BDU's are a problem for you...You do realize that BDU's are just pants with lots of pockets right? Our local Police Dept has black/darkblue uniforms and in most cases they were BDU types of uniforms on patrol...and guess what 99% of people don't realize they aren't wearing the old style uniforms. Do you know why police officers like wearing them...they are COMFORTABLE!!!

 

$150K for a vehicle? Maybe at large departments, if a small one has one it was either from a free govt program for surplus equipment or was purchased with forfeiture funds which may only be spent on equipment. $15K for a sticker package :no: maybe $1,500 not $15,000 BTW do you complain when local small town fire dept spends $800K on a firetruck they use maybe a couple a dozen times a year?

 

Doomsday bunkers for families of Law Enforcement...please share a link that's the first I've heard of that.

 

There was a recent case where an escaped convict was known to be in a local trailer and was thought to have guns he had a history of violence towards police...should officers have knocked on the door and given him time to get a gun before going in to get him and take him by surprise?

 

I can see this will continue to be a futile discussion, but to your points:

 

I'm not concerned about the actual number of officers at a game, it's the uniform. Yes, I realize fully what BDU's are, I wore them for over 12 years serving my country, I'm not an idiot, but you seem to take me for one. I don't care about comfort for a police officer, I care about perception. I want them in a standard uniform, not BDU's, unless they are on a specific duty that calls for that. Honestly don't know what that would be unless they were doing heavy field work.

 

Yes, $150k for a vehicle for a department that is very small, much smaller than even say...Somerset. It wasn't free, it was misguided purchasing.

 

Yes, $15k for the sticker package. And yes, I think that volunteer fire departments that spend $800k (or some other insane amount) for a multi-stage ladder truck in a town with no buildings over 2 stories fits this....and yes, I complain about it.

 

I never said "Doomsday Bunkers", I said "incident bunkers". I don't have a link because I was the person who was selling the sea land containers to the local agency. When I inquired about usage, so I could better understand what to look for, that's when I was told they would build these negative air, secure areas for their families to stay in during an incident...why you ask: "you can't expect us to do our job if we are worried about our families, so we want our families safe in the incident shelter". Is that enough of a direct quote for you ?

 

Your last paragraph is just stupid...the reference to No Knock Warrants would require some common sense and not an emergent situation like you described.

 

We obviously will not see eye to eye on this issue and could continue this nonsensical banter until the end of time, but that would be wasting my time. Without any ability to see the other side of this argument, it will continue to be difficult for you to ever come to any different conclusion. I determined this after you BDU statement. Thank you for your service. I stand by mine and my right to express my opinion because of it.

I can see this will continue to be a futile discussion, but to your points:

 

I'm not concerned about the actual number of officers at a game, it's the uniform. Yes, I realize fully what BDU's are, I wore them for over 12 years serving my country, I'm not an idiot, but you seem to take me for one. I don't care about comfort for a police officer, I care about perception. I want them in a standard uniform, not BDU's, unless they are on a specific duty that calls for that. Honestly don't know what that would be unless they were doing heavy field work.

 

Yes, $150k for a vehicle for a department that is very small, much smaller than even say...Somerset. It wasn't free, it was misguided purchasing.

 

Yes, $15k for the sticker package. And yes, I think that volunteer fire departments that spend $800k (or some other insane amount) for a multi-stage ladder truck in a town with no buildings over 2 stories fits this....and yes, I complain about it.

 

I never said "Doomsday Bunkers", I said "incident bunkers". I don't have a link because I was the person who was selling the sea land containers to the local agency. When I inquired about usage, so I could better understand what to look for, that's when I was told they would build these negative air, secure areas for their families to stay in during an incident...why you ask: "you can't expect us to do our job if we are worried about our families, so we want our families safe in the incident shelter". Is that enough of a direct quote for you ?

 

Your last paragraph is just stupid...the reference to No Knock Warrants would require some common sense and not an emergent situation like you described.

 

We obviously will not see eye to eye on this issue and could continue this nonsensical banter until the end of time, but that would be wasting my time. Without any ability to see the other side of this argument, it will continue to be difficult for you to ever come to any different conclusion. I determined this after you BDU statement. Thank you for your service. I stand by mine and my right to express my opinion because of it.

 

Thank you for thanking me for my service, but I'm not sure what service your talking about. I'm not in LE nor have I ever been. I'm just tired of people taking shots at every single thing they do.

 

So to break down your complaints...

-You don't like how police officers dress

-You don't care about their comfort while doing their job

-You disagree with a purchase that may or not have been made (probably surplus)

-Your against small Departments using No Knock Warrants (except you now admit there needs to be some exceptions)

 

I still think $15,000 for a sticker package is ridiculous, I checked with a friend that provides sticker packages for local fire and police and the average car sticker package is around $1,000 or so. Maybe if you count lights and other electronics you get to $15,000!

 

As for my STUPID comment, you had just said that you didn't think it was a good idea for small departments to use No Knock Warrants, you didn't say it was OK in SOME situations.

 

Thank You for Your 12 years of Service, glad you didn't have to do 95% of it in your "Class A's"

 

IMO there are issues that can and need to be addressed but they have more to do with the Law as Written, Procedures and the Public's Expectations than they do with equipment or clothes.

 

I support police as I've shown in many topics recently. But your going to have to get past this idea that militarazation is false. It's a real concern of people on both sides of aisle both Democrat and Republicans. Both pro police and anti police. It has nothing to do with being against individual officers , but the policy of leaders.

 

This topic isn't going away and will be a major topic of discussion moving forward.

 

 

It's bull. How many times have you seen a police officer patrolling with an AR, or driving a armored vehicle?

 

No one can tell me what items specifically they don't like anyways. Some have said Camo, which is hilarious.

 

Bayonets? Agreed they should get rid of them. But how many times have you heard of one being used? I'm guessing never.

 

Most of these tools are used to keep police safe, and to do their jobs (which in some cases means protecting innocent citizens while doing something very dangerous).

 

Would you tell a doctor he/she doesn't need new and better equipment? EMS equipment has gotten better over the years...sane with fire...but when police get things that help them some people flip out. You shouldn't ask someone else to do a job without whatever they need to keep them safe, if you aren't willing to do it yourself. I wouldn't.

 

And btw, this idea that police getting bug guns and military style weapons is a new thing is silly. Police have tried to keep up with or have more than the bad guys since when organized crime hit big. Have the police taken over the country yet?

 

Police forces should not be armed like our military. Unless Marshall law has been declared I don't see how you can be for it. We can't pick and choose what parts of the constitution to abide by.

 

They aren't armed like our military. Do they have bombs, grenades, tanks(that can fire?), attack helicopters, or fighter jets? No. They have some armored trucks, some rifles and some tear gas. They are not armed like the military.