Adam Jones was -2 in DRS.

 

Meant NL Gold Glovers, but my point remains the same...

I can honestly say I don't know near enough about defensive metrics to make a reasonable argument one way or the other about them.

 

I just thought it was odd because it's based on number of successful attempts. It almost seems like if you get to balls others can't get to and don't get the out, your value takes a hit. At least for infielders. Outfield seems different because the majority of balls put in play are in the air.

He had a whopping DRS of 1 this season. By far the lowest of any Gold Glove winner. Ellis led the NL among 2B with 12 DRS.

Yep. BP is awful.

Yep. BP is awful.

 

Who said that? I've said in this thread, he's great defensively. He wasn't the best this season though, the statistics bear that out. I know, I know, I used the "S" word, so you won't even give my post a thought, but there were more deserving 2B of the Gold Glove than Phillips.

I read that this year baseball used statistics to screen candidates and provided that to the voters. At second base, Walker wasn't one of the final three nominees. The final three were BP, Barney and Ellis. The Bleacher Report (I hate that site's format, by the way) said Barney should have won:

 

Grading the 2013 MLB Gold Glove Award Selections | Bleacher Report

 

Question - when measuring range factor, do they figure in balls hit near the defender that were not caught? Like some of the posters above, I question stats driven primarily by the number of chances because there are so many other factors that impact that. If you show me there were 1,000 balls hit within 10 feet of the 2B; 2B A got to 90% of them and 2B B only got to 80% of them; then that stat tells me something about each player's range. Saying 2B A handle 50 more balls than 2B B is not a good measure by itself. Fo that measure to have more value, you would have to look at every infielder on both teams and see how many chances each infielder handles. That will help clarify if it is the 2B getting to more balls or if it is other factors (ground ball pitchers, slow turf, etc.) impacting the number of chances.

I read that this year baseball used statistics to screen candidates and provided that to the voters. At second base, Walker wasn't one of the final three nominees. The final three were BP, Barney and Ellis. The Bleacher Report (I hate that site's format, by the way) said Barney should have won:

 

Grading the 2013 MLB Gold Glove Award Selections | Bleacher Report

 

Question - when measuring range factor, do they figure in balls hit near the defender that were not caught? Like some of the posters above, I question stats driven primarily by the number of chances because there are so many other factors that impact that. If you show me there were 1,000 balls hit within 10 feet of the 2B; 2B A got to 90% of them and 2B B only got to 80% of them; then that stat tells me something about each player's range. Saying 2B A handle 50 more balls than 2B B is not a good measure by itself. Fo that measure to have more value, you would have to look at every infielder on both teams and see how many chances each infielder handles. That will help clarify if it is the 2B getting to more balls or if it is other factors (ground ball pitchers, slow turf, etc.) impacting the number of chances.

 

I always thought it was simply (putouts+assists)\innings played. Doesn't tell me much.

Who said that? I've said in this thread, he's great defensively. He wasn't the best this season though, the statistics bear that out. I know, I know, I used the "S" word, so you won't even give my post a thought, but there were more deserving 2B of the Gold Glove than Phillips.

I said it. I hope we trade him.

I read that this year baseball used statistics to screen candidates and provided that to the voters. At second base, Walker wasn't one of the final three nominees. The final three were BP, Barney and Ellis. The Bleacher Report (I hate that site's format, by the way) said Barney should have won:

 

Grading the 2013 MLB Gold Glove Award Selections | Bleacher Report

 

Question - when measuring range factor, do they figure in balls hit near the defender that were not caught? Like some of the posters above, I question stats driven primarily by the number of chances because there are so many other factors that impact that. If you show me there were 1,000 balls hit within 10 feet of the 2B; 2B A got to 90% of them and 2B B only got to 80% of them; then that stat tells me something about each player's range. Saying 2B A handle 50 more balls than 2B B is not a good measure by itself. Fo that measure to have more value, you would have to look at every infielder on both teams and see how many chances each infielder handles. That will help clarify if it is the 2B getting to more balls or if it is other factors (ground ball pitchers, slow turf, etc.) impacting the number of chances.

 

Here's what SABR stats were used when evaluating as you mentioned above.

 

Five different defensive measures make up the SDI. Three of the measures — defensive runs saved (DRS), ultimate zone rating (UZR) and runs effectively defended (RED) — rate a player's strength based on plays he makes in specific zones of the field and count for 70 percent of the SDI. The two other metrics — defensive regression analysis (DRA) and total zone rating (TZ) — give "a more generalized approach that estimates the number of batted balls hit into a fielder's area" based on play-by-play records and provide the remaining 30 percent of the SDI.

 

 

So no matter if people like it or not SABR stats will be used more and more in the future because even though the picture it paints isn't perfect it's far better than gut and eye tests.

I always thought it was simply (putouts+assists)\innings played. Doesn't tell me much.

 

I'm not to sure on defensive metrics. I have a pretty good feeling they're pretty good and they will only get better. To me at least the offensive ones are easy to follow. I'm not nearly as interested in the defensive ones so I may never understand them b/c I choose not to. If I had the desire to learn more about it I would check out this:

 

Fielding Bible

Following my post above, I decided to look some stats up. Phillips' stats look pretty good on mlb.com.

 

He was the #1 2B in Total Chances (Walker was #3; Barney #4; Ellis #8).

 

He was #1 in Putouts (Walker #3; Barney #6; Ellis #7).

 

He was #1 in Assists (Walker #2; Barney #5; Ellis #8).

 

He was #4 in Double Plays (Walker #2; Ellis #6; Barney #7).

 

He was #5 in Fielding Percent (Barney #1; Walker #3; Ellis #4).

 

He was #2 in their Range Factor (Walker was #1; Ellis #4; Barney #10).

 

On baseball-reference.com, they have a defensive calculation called Total Zone Runs which supposedly factors all the defensive categories together to give a measure of the best defensive player. BP was #1 in the NL in TZR.

 

Those may not be the new sabermetrics but they are good numbers and seem to point to BP being the best. That doesn't include the spectacular plays we all see every night on Sportscenter.

Here's what SABR stats were used when evaluating as you mentioned above.

 

Five different defensive measures make up the SDI. Three of the measures — defensive runs saved (DRS), ultimate zone rating (UZR) and runs effectively defended (RED) — rate a player's strength based on plays he makes in specific zones of the field and count for 70 percent of the SDI. The two other metrics — defensive regression analysis (DRA) and total zone rating (TZ) — give "a more generalized approach that estimates the number of batted balls hit into a fielder's area" based on play-by-play records and provide the remaining 30 percent of the SDI.

 

 

So no matter if people like it or not SABR stats will be used more and more in the future because even though the picture it paints isn't perfect it's far better than gut and eye tests.

 

I have a ton of questions about how these are compiled. For starters, does defensive alignment come into play when you are calculating strengths "based on plays he makes in specific zones of the field..."? (These questions aren't necessarily for you SSC. I just have questions)

 

This is one reason I have trouble with some of the statistics. (Some, not all) Things like first pitch strikes, WHIP, QAB's...etc. are beautiful stats. I struggle with other stats because the situation is rarely taken into consideration. For instance, I've asked multiple times if the "bunting hitters to 2nd base" statistic takes into account who is on deck or in the hole? I don't think bunting the leadoff guy to 2B with 0 outs is always the right call but if you have two run producing giants behind the batter and only need 1 run, I would tend to use it. Especially, if that batter is not a run producer or good hitter.

 

While I agree that the metrics give you a really good idea of what a player can do over the course of a season, the fact of the matter is that you can't always manage a game that way. There are too many variables to rely solely on metrics for every decision. And as we all know, one AB can completely change a season.

Following my post above, I decided to look some stats up. Phillips' stats look pretty good on mlb.com.

 

He was the #1 2B in Total Chances (Walker was #3; Barney #4; Ellis #8).

 

He was #1 in Putouts (Walker #3; Barney #6; Ellis #7).

 

He was #1 in Assists (Walker #2; Barney #5; Ellis #8).

 

He was #4 in Double Plays (Walker #2; Ellis #6; Barney #7).

 

He was #5 in Fielding Percent (Barney #1; Walker #3; Ellis #4).

 

He was #2 in their Range Factor (Walker was #1; Ellis #4; Barney #10).

 

Those may not be the new sabermetrics but they are good numbers and seem to point to BP being the best. That doesn't include the spectacular plays we all see every night on Sportscenter.

 

It really depends on where you look. According to ESPN, he's #5 in rF, and 4th in dWAR.

 

The most important statistic IMO, the one preached by the Fielding Bible, is DRS (Defensive Runs Saved). BP had a +1. That means that over the course of the entire season, the Reds having BP at 2B saved them a net of 1 total run over the average 2B. Ellis had a +12.

I have a ton of questions about how these are compiled. For starters, does defensive alignment come into play when you are calculating strengths "based on plays he makes in specific zones of the field..."? (These questions aren't necessarily for you SSC. I just have questions)

 

This is one reason I have trouble with some of the statistics. (Some, not all) Things like first pitch strikes, WHIP, QAB's...etc. are beautiful stats. I struggle with other stats because the situation is rarely taken into consideration. For instance, I've asked multiple times if the "bunting hitters to 2nd base" statistic takes into account who is on deck or in the hole? I don't think bunting the leadoff guy to 2B with 0 outs is always the right call but if you have two run producing giants behind the batter and only need 1 run, I would tend to use it. Especially, if that batter is not a run producer or good hitter.

 

While I agree that the metrics give you a really good idea of what a player can do over the course of a season, the fact of the matter is that you can't always manage a game that way. There are too many variables to rely solely on metrics for every decision. And as we all know, one AB can completely change a season.

 

I think you'd be love the Fielding Bible. It goes over in detail how all the things you mention are taken into account.

I think you'd be love the Fielding Bible. It goes over in detail how all the things you mention are taken into account.

 

Is it a picture book?

Is it a picture book?

No. It's a spreadsheet.