You probably would be the only person who could honestly say that the 2005 team was the more talented team. The 2005 team did have an explosive offense and three really good receivers in Chad, TJ, and Henry. They had a solid running back in Rudi, and I admit Palmer in 2005 is better than Dalton. This years team had Green who is probably better than Chad but we will just call that a draw to be fair. TJ obviously is better than the #2 on this years team and Henry is better than the #3 on this years team. The TE position is not even close though and the 2 TE's on this team kills the TE's on that team. This team will be using both TE's a lot which both are very talented, which gets Dalton close to as many weapons as Palmer that year. In the backfield Rudi and Green Ellis is a wash, and Perry and Barnard are a wash. So basically the one difference that really made the 2005 offense much better is Palmer. Which Palmer was in his 3rd season, lets see how Dalton is this year. Special teams wise this years special teams has a lot more talent, and you already said the defense is better. So yes once again as a TEAM with the key word being TEAM top to bottom this years team has more talent and I don't know how or why you try to argue that.

 

Let's take a look at the 2005 and 2013 team

 

QB 2005

RB 2005

FB 2005

OL 2005 (The best line the Bengals have had since 88)

WR's 2005

 

For you to sit there without a smile on your face as you say the only difference between the 2005 and the 2013 team is Palmer is probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen you write on here. How in the world can you say this years WR's are better or this years OL is better or this years RB is better than 2005? You just lost the little bit of credibility you had when it comes to the Bengals.

Let's take a look at the 2005 and 2013 team

 

QB 2005

RB 2005

FB 2005

OL 2005 (The best line the Bengals have had since 88)

WR's 2005

 

For you to sit there without a smile on your face as you say the only difference between the 2005 and the 2013 team is Palmer is probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen you write on here. How in the world can you say this years WR's are better or this years OL is better or this years RB is better than 2005? You just lost the little bit of credibility you had when it comes to the Bengals.

 

Put Green Ellis on the 2005 team and produces most likely the same results as Rudi. Very similar runners, thats why it is a wash. WR position 2005 I even said it was better, however when you throw in TE's and how the 2013 team will be using more 2 TE sets than 3 WR sets like the 2005 team and still have Green on the field then yes it does make it pretty even in terms of threats in the passing game. Now on the offensive line you are right about that, I forgot the 2005 offensive line was very good, so you are correct on that. Fullback wise the 2013 team will most likely have Charles at fullback who has looked really good at fullback and also brings another receiving threat out of the backfield when he is in. So I don't know how you can put 2005 as better at worst it is a wash there too.

 

So what is your point here? I have admitted the 2005 offense is better, I didn't say otherwise. However its not as far off as you think, and you keep ignoring the most important thing I have said which is TEAM. I know you want to argue it since I am the one who said it. However come on man your trying to argue and say the 2005 TEAM was a more overall talented TEAM? That right there makes you lose credibility when your probably the only one who thinks that. Then if you truly don't think that, then what was the point of this at all?

That may be the most intelligent post you've made....of course it is exactly what I've said so by you saying the same thing as me makes you a very smart man.

 

Hmmm am I really saying the exact same thing as you, or are you saying the exact same thing as me. Hmmm I wonder who started this thread, and what reason he started it for? I would take a look at post #2 and what I had to say about Palmer and his better deep ball he throws. So you might want to change your words around, you saying the exact same thing I said makes you very smart. Once again as always two steps ahead of you. Nice try.

Put Green Ellis on the 2005 team and produces most likely the same results as Rudi. Very similar runners, thats why it is a wash. WR position 2005 I even said it was better, however when you throw in TE's and how the 2013 team will be using more 2 TE sets than 3 WR sets like the 2005 team and still have Green on the field then yes it does make it pretty even in terms of threats in the passing game. Now on the offensive line you are right about that, I forgot the 2005 offensive line was very good, so you are correct on that. Fullback wise the 2013 team will most likely have Charles at fullback who has looked really good at fullback and also brings another receiving threat out of the backfield when he is in. So I don't know how you can put 2005 as better at worst it is a wash there too.

 

So what is your point here? I have admitted the 2005 offense is better, I didn't say otherwise. However its not as far off as you think, and you keep ignoring the most important thing I have said which is TEAM. I know you want to argue it since I am the one who said it. However come on man your trying to argue and say the 2005 TEAM was a more overall talented TEAM? That right there makes you lose credibility when your probably the only one who thinks that. Then if you truly don't think that, then what was the point of this at all?

 

Thanks, you proved my point that you have no idea what your talking about.

 

You talk about TE's yet you are strictly going off of potential when you have no idea how many times this team will go with 2 TE sets and forget that Eifert hasn't even taken a pro snap yet and Greahams hands of stone.

 

No way this years FB is better than Johnson in 2005. That year was the reason Johnson became the richest FB in the league with his new contract.

 

No way on gods green earth is this WR's group anywhere near the group from 2005.

 

So you say this team is better than 2005. The only real advantage this team has over the 2005 is the DLine and maybe safety. No way this years team has better LB's. remember 2005 had healthy Pollack and Thurman.

 

So out of 4 areas on defense this years team has possibly 2 better corps and out of 6 areas on offense there are 0 on this years team that are better than the 2005 team, and even if I will stretch and say we will give Eiferts potential the nod and say TE this year is better than 2005's that is only 3 areas out of 10 areas. Even someone who is novice when it comes to the Bengals can agree with that.

 

The reason this talent thing is such a joke is its the exact same topic that came up about the 2009 or 2010 team and they flopped.

Thanks, you proved my point that you have no idea what your talking about.

 

You talk about TE's yet you are strictly going off of potential when you have no idea how many times this team will go with 2 TE sets and forget that Eifert hasn't even taken a pro snap yet and Greahams hands of stone.

 

No way this years FB is better than Johnson in 2005. That year was the reason Johnson became the richest FB in the league with his new contract.

 

No way on gods green earth is this WR's group anywhere near the group from 2005.

 

So you say this team is better than 2005. The only real advantage this team has over the 2005 is the DLine and maybe safety. No way this years team has better LB's. remember 2005 had healthy Pollack and Thurman.

 

So out of 4 areas on defense this years team has possibly 2 better corps and out of 6 areas on offense there are 0 on this years team that are better than the 2005 team, and even if I will stretch and say we will give Eiferts potential the nod and say TE this year is better than 2005's that is only 3 areas out of 10 areas. Even someone who is novice when it comes to the Bengals can agree with that.

 

The reason this talent thing is such a joke is its the exact same topic that came up about the 2009 or 2010 team and they flopped.

 

Yep which ended up being a horrible signing which the Bengals did a lot of bad signings back then. Overall talent most people would take Charles or at least make it a wash. I agree the WR's is better in 2005. I am not sure how you can even argue anything on the TE position even if you don't count Eifert, even with Gresham being inconsistent its not even close at the TE spot and thats not even counting Eifert. When it comes to weapons Dalton can throw to and how they will be used, it is close to as talented but I even admit the targets Palmer threw to does get the edge.

 

On defense are you serious? Its not even close on the defensive line, and even safety even with not having a #2 safety. That one starting safety Olahmado or whatever his name was that year was HORRIBLE. The secondary as a whole is better on this team than in 2005. The 2005 team got a lot of picks, but the rest of the time they did not do a good job at consistently stopping a passing game. Now for the linebacker spot that is basically a wash. Vontez and Thurman are basically identical, and Pollack remember didn't do much that year. He had 22 total tackles ALL YEAR LONG, he did have 4 sacks. 2 of them coming in the last game of the year. So basically all season long he was a non factor, but I am sure you failed to remember that part.

 

So once again as a TEAM this years team is more talented. Which do I need to define what a TEAM is for you? I am sure you know the definition, but a team consist of an offense, defense and special teams. A team also does not just include the starters, it includes backups too. Which this team also has a lot more depth and filled with talented guys backing up. I know you like to argue with me, because thats what we do. However come on man this argument is pointless. If I had said that this is the most talented offense since the 80's then I would get your point. However I said the most talented team, and I don't know how or why you could keep arguing that.

Yep which ended up being a horrible signing which the Bengals did a lot of bad signings back then. Overall talent most people would take Charles or at least make it a wash. I agree the WR's is better in 2005. I am not sure how you can even argue anything on the TE position even if you don't count Eifert, even with Gresham being inconsistent its not even close at the TE spot and thats not even counting Eifert. When it comes to weapons Dalton can throw to and how they will be used, it is close to as talented but I even admit the targets Palmer threw to does get the edge.

 

On defense are you serious? Its not even close on the defensive line, and even safety even with not having a #2 safety. That one starting safety Olahmado or whatever his name was that year was HORRIBLE. The secondary as a whole is better on this team than in 2005. The 2005 team got a lot of picks, but the rest of the time they did not do a good job at consistently stopping a passing game. Now for the linebacker spot that is basically a wash. Vontez and Thurman are basically identical, and Pollack remember didn't do much that year. He had 22 total tackles ALL YEAR LONG, he did have 4 sacks. 2 of them coming in the last game of the year. So basically all season long he was a non factor, but I am sure you failed to remember that part.

 

So once again as a TEAM this years team is more talented. Which do I need to define what a TEAM is for you? I am sure you know the definition, but a team consist of an offense, defense and special teams. A team also does not just include the starters, it includes backups too. Which this team also has a lot more depth and filled with talented guys backing up. I know you like to argue with me, because thats what we do. However come on man this argument is pointless. If I had said that this is the most talented offense since the 80's then I would get your point. However I said the most talented team, and I don't know how or why you could keep arguing that.

 

 

 

I will make it easy for you, I will break it down even more and you tell me exactly who on this years team is better than the 2005 teams offense.

 

OL

2005 Offensive line made up of the following players (the one spot you actually agree that 2005 was better)

Center Rich Braham, Guards Eric Steinbach and Bobbie Williams, Tackles Willie Anderson and Levi Jones

 

2005 WR's

Chad Johnson

TJ Houshmandzadeh

Chris Henry

Kevin Walter

 

2005 TE's

Reggie Kelly

Matt Schoebel

Tony Stewart

 

2005 QB

Carson Palmer

 

2005 RB's

Rudi Johnson

Cris Perry

Jeremy Johnson

 

You say this teams secondary is better, I say it's not close, the CB's of 2005 were better and 2005 also had a better safety in Madieu Williams than any safety on this years team.

The problem with the 2005 defense was the D-Line couldn't put any pressure on anyone.

2005 CB's

Deltha Oneal

Tory James

Also let me remind you that Deltha Oneal also made the pro bowl that season along with 3 other Bengals, how many bengals are headed to the pro bowl do you think this year?

 

DB's 2005

Madieu Williams, who I would love for you to show me any safety on this years team as good as Williams was in 2005

 

2005 team had 4 pro bowlers

Let me remind you of the 2005 CB's, Deltha Oneal had 10 INT's and Tory James had 13 over the 2004-2005 season.

Let me also remind you that the best CB the Bengals had last year was Leon Hall, how many INT's did he have last year? 2

 

Tory James 2005 8 INT's, Deltha Oneal 2005 INT's 10

Leon Hall 2 INT's in 2012

 

You really do need to actually do the research you claim to have done all the time because whatever books you are reading needs to be tossed in the bon fire this weekend.

Edited July 31, 201313 yr by Hellbird

Dang! Here we go again with letting facts ruin a great debate. lol

Dang! Here we go again with letting facts ruin a great debate. lol

 

I know, but one of these days FC will actually look at the facts and realize he may have to remove those bengal colored glasses.

I know, but one of these days FC will actually look at the facts and realize he may have to remove those bengal colored glasses.

 

Ha! Good luck with that one.

This has been fun to read. Bottom line this team, which is very talented has done nothing. There are stats for 2005 and let's see what plays out this year. The biggest reason the 2005 won as many as they did was 40+ turnovers. That is a lot of extra possessions. Offense was very good, defense average except the turnovers. This team has the makings of their best defense ever. We'll see though.

I will make it easy for you, I will break it down even more and you tell me exactly who on this years team is better than the 2005 teams offense.

 

OL

2005 Offensive line made up of the following players (the one spot you actually agree that 2005 was better)

Center Rich Braham, Guards Eric Steinbach and Bobbie Williams, Tackles Willie Anderson and Levi Jones

 

2005 WR's

Chad Johnson

TJ Houshmandzadeh

Chris Henry

Kevin Walter

 

2005 TE's

Reggie Kelly

Matt Schoebel

Tony Stewart

 

2005 QB

Carson Palmer

 

2005 RB's

Rudi Johnson

Cris Perry

Jeremy Johnson

 

You say this teams secondary is better, I say it's not close, the CB's of 2005 were better and 2005 also had a better safety in Madieu Williams than any safety on this years team.

The problem with the 2005 defense was the D-Line couldn't put any pressure on anyone.

2005 CB's

Deltha Oneal

Tory James

Also let me remind you that Deltha Oneal also made the pro bowl that season along with 3 other Bengals, how many bengals are headed to the pro bowl do you think this year?

 

DB's 2005

Madieu Williams, who I would love for you to show me any safety on this years team as good as Williams was in 2005

 

2005 team had 4 pro bowlers

Let me remind you of the 2005 CB's, Deltha Oneal had 10 INT's and Tory James had 13 over the 2004-2005 season.

Let me also remind you that the best CB the Bengals had last year was Leon Hall, how many INT's did he have last year? 2

 

Tory James 2005 8 INT's, Deltha Oneal 2005 INT's 10

Leon Hall 2 INT's in 2012

 

You really do need to actually do the research you claim to have done all the time because whatever books you are reading needs to be tossed in the bon fire this weekend.

 

When did interceptions make someone a better corner? One of the best corners in the league in Revis doesn't always get many interceptions but is still considered one of the best. So your whole Oneal argument at Corner is meaningless, because go back and watch that years defense. He got beat plenty of times, but he did well with interceptions because of how much he gambled. I believe one game he had three interceptions off of Culpepper for Minnesota, who showed his true colors at QB that year. Same with James great at interceptions now at overall coverage. Safety position Williams? Nelson does produce like Williams actually nice try on that one.

 

I mean from your stance on this that years defense was stacked and should have been one of the best in the league correct? Now was it? Not at all. It was an opportunistic defense, but when they couldn't create a turnover they were not good at all. I am not sure how you can sit here and try to say otherwise. If they were were so talented on defense, then that wouldn't have put the part of the team that everyone in those years said the team needed to address.

Dang! Here we go again with letting facts ruin a great debate. lol

 

Which fact would that be Mal? I mean if those were facts then I guess you believe that 2005 team was more talented too, and also had a lot of talent on defense like Hellbird believes correct? So I am interested in what facts you like? I mean if there was so much talent on that defense, then how come that defense finished 28th in the league that year? How about that for a fact. But hey if you want to go with the guy who has ignored more facts this off season than anyone. Go right ahead. Facts that back up the 28th defense in the league but I am sure that will be ignored. :ylsuper:

I will make it easy for you, I will break it down even more and you tell me exactly who on this years team is better than the 2005 teams offense.

 

OL

2005 Offensive line made up of the following players (the one spot you actually agree that 2005 was better)

Center Rich Braham, Guards Eric Steinbach and Bobbie Williams, Tackles Willie Anderson and Levi Jones

 

2005 WR's

Chad Johnson

TJ Houshmandzadeh

Chris Henry

Kevin Walter

 

2005 TE's

Reggie Kelly

Matt Schoebel

Tony Stewart

 

2005 QB

Carson Palmer

 

2005 RB's

Rudi Johnson

Cris Perry

Jeremy Johnson

 

You say this teams secondary is better, I say it's not close, the CB's of 2005 were better and 2005 also had a better safety in Madieu Williams than any safety on this years team.

The problem with the 2005 defense was the D-Line couldn't put any pressure on anyone.

2005 CB's

Deltha Oneal

Tory James

Also let me remind you that Deltha Oneal also made the pro bowl that season along with 3 other Bengals, how many bengals are headed to the pro bowl do you think this year?

 

DB's 2005

Madieu Williams, who I would love for you to show me any safety on this years team as good as Williams was in 2005

 

2005 team had 4 pro bowlers

Let me remind you of the 2005 CB's, Deltha Oneal had 10 INT's and Tory James had 13 over the 2004-2005 season.

Let me also remind you that the best CB the Bengals had last year was Leon Hall, how many INT's did he have last year? 2

 

Tory James 2005 8 INT's, Deltha Oneal 2005 INT's 10

Leon Hall 2 INT's in 2012

 

You really do need to actually do the research you claim to have done all the time because whatever books you are reading needs to be tossed in the bon fire this weekend.

 

In 2005 the Bengals defense ranked 28th.

26th against the pass

20th against the run

The most important stat which I know SSC will agree with is points allowed and they finished. 22nd in most points allowed a game at 22 points a game.

 

In 2012 the Bengals defense ranked 6th

7th against the pass

12th against the run

8th in points allowed

 

In 2005 Bengals offense finished 6th

5th passing

11th rushing

4th in points scored at 26.3 a game

 

In 2012 Bengals offense finished 22nd

17th passing

18th rushing

12th in points scored a game at 24.4 which would have been 8th best in 2005. So in the most important category of points scored they were close to top 10 and have added pieces that should help make them a top 10 scoring offense this year.

 

In 2005 Graham was a pro bowler even though he sucked in big moments, but he would get the nod over Nugent. Just like the punter in 2012 would also easily get the nod over the punter in 2005.

 

So basically as already stated the offense in 2005 was better, while this years version is getting better. Then on defense it was not even close this years is better, except for turnovers. Special Teams in terms of return game, this years team would have to get the nod with Pac Man. When it comes to kicker we can give Graham the nod, just like the punter on this years team would get the nod.

 

In 2005 in the secondary you had the two corners you said, and then Ratliff as the nickel corner who was a joke. As safety you had Ifeanyi Ohalete who quite possibly had to be the worst safety I ever seen and he was a starter that year, and he never played another down in his life in the NFL after that season because he was so bad. Then you had a substitute teacher in Kevin Kaesviharn also playing a lot in the secondary. At linebacker you had Thurman who was very good, and then two guys around him who were not good at all at that time. Defensive line nothing there at all except Justin Smith, and he has shown they had him at the wrong spot the whole time. Absolutely no depth at all for the defense. On offense the starters besides TE which was very weak were pretty solid everywhere. Except just like the defense they had no depth at all, and that showed the next year when Braham got hurt.

 

I think I have shown your whole little secondary thing in 2005 was better thing to be a joke. They were good at turnovers, sucked when they weren't able to. Which is why the pass defense ranked 26th. I mean if you want to go with stats then look at Tom Brady's numbers a future hall of famer, and look at his stats his first two seasons as a starter. One of those years he even won a super bowl. Shoot look at his number even in the three years his team won super bowls. His numbers are basically the same as the numbers Dalton has put up his first two years. So since Dalton has basically the same stats, does that mean Dalton is just as good as Brady was back then even though Brady was winning super bowls? Not at all, even though the numbers would suggest that. The secondary and corners, and depth is ten times better than in 2005.

 

So my original thing I said was that this years team is the most talented TEAM since the 80's. Once again a TEAM is offense, defense, and special teams and that also includes the depth you have. So how you can still say that my original statement of this years team being the most talented since the 80's is wrong is beyond me. I LOVED THE 2005 TEAM. That was really the first Bengals team I got to see that was actually good, and I will always love that team and always wonder what would have happened if Palmer didn't get hurt. That 2005 team if Palmer didn't get hurt was set up to possibly make a run at it. With it have a great offense, and a bad defense but an opportunistic defense it did give that team a chance to be real successful. It does not mean that the overall talent for the TEAM was great though. This years team does have more talent overall than 2005, and that is all I have said. However since I was the one who said it, and since it went against your whole they didn't get better in the off season comment, you knew you had to disagree with it and make it an argument over something different. There is more talent on this TEAM TEAM TEAM than in 2005, and most since the 80's most likely.

By the way your research seems to be pretty flawed when your research said show you someone as good as Madieu Williams was in 2005. Well in 2005 Williams only had 17 tackles and one interception. Shoot the guy only played 4 games. Did you even do any research? It seems to me if you did you would have noticed that. Madieu Williams was a stud his rookie year for the Bengals in 2004, but then after that his numbers went way down every single year after that when he was a Bengal.

When did interceptions make someone a better corner? One of the best corners in the league in Revis doesn't always get many interceptions but is still considered one of the best. So your whole Oneal argument at Corner is meaningless, because go back and watch that years defense. He got beat plenty of times, but he did well with interceptions because of how much he gambled. I believe one game he had three interceptions off of Culpepper for Minnesota, who showed his true colors at QB that year. Same with James great at interceptions now at overall coverage. Safety position Williams? Nelson does produce like Williams actually nice try on that one.

 

I mean from your stance on this that years defense was stacked and should have been one of the best in the league correct? Now was it? Not at all. It was an opportunistic defense, but when they couldn't create a turnover they were not good at all. I am not sure how you can sit here and try to say otherwise. If they were were so talented on defense, then that wouldn't have put the part of the team that everyone in those years said the team needed to address.

 

Anyone who knows just a little about football knows it starts up front. With the horrible defensive line on the 2005 team you know that was their biggest weakness and affected everything else. For Oneal being so bad, he made the pro bowl that year which again makes your argument about him ridiculous, but don't let facts get in your way.