Thank you.

 

When HS athletics started over 70 years ago, I would agree with the assertion of communities. That has changed now with the emergence of private schools and the definition of communities is different.

 

Thank you, you hit it on the head, the definition of communities has changed.

Many of the small independent public schools in NKY have open enrollment and a strong community basis. I look at Bellevue, Ludlow and Beechwood and see a very strong pride and sense of community. They are open to enroll students from other areas but have retained the community feel.

Thank you.

 

When HS athletics started over 70 years ago, I would agree with the assertion of communities. That has changed now with the emergence of private schools and the definition of communities is different.

 

 

It's not the emergence of private schools, it's the matter of school choice.

 

Several counties have open enrollment in their public schools. Please don't polarize the issue further by implyng that private schools destroyed the definition of communities.

Yeah, I agree with you. But the people of McCracken voted to keep it the way it was because they like their communities, they didn't want to lose that "common bond".

 

If McCracken Co. voted to keep their vision of community, so be it. But then they should be prepared to live with the consequences, both negative and positive, that may result. The fact that other school systems choose another route is immaterial. Any advantages, of any sort, that another school system may attain, either academic or athletic, are the result of that school systems choices, and not unfair. Again, as stated many times, the voters are able to make the choice for their school systems. As you've pointed out, your voters did what you felt was best for your community. Others felt differently and made other choices.

Yeah, I agree with you. But the people of McCracken voted to keep it the way it was because they like their communities, they didn't want to lose that "common bond".

 

So because the citizens of McCracken County voted to self-limit their schools in GoBigRed's system all other school systems should do the same? Forget about excelling, let's all be average.

 

I would be very interested to know where the stantardized scores for McCracken County students rank in the state.

 

My guess would be middle of the pack.

So because the citizens of McCracken County voted to self-limit their schools in GoBigRed's system all other school systems should do the same? Forget about excelling, let's all be average.

 

Lol, no, lets all be better.

It's not the emergence of private schools, it's the matter of school choice.

 

Several counties have open enrollment in their public schools. Please don't polarize the issue further by implyng that private schools destroyed the definition of communities.

 

 

If McCracken Co. voted to keep their vision of community, so be it. But then they should be prepared to live with the consequences, both negative and positive, that may result. The fact that other school systems choose another route is immaterial. Any advantages, of any sort, that another school system may attain, either academic or athletic, are the result of that school systems choices, and not unfair. Again, as stated many times, the voters are able to make the choice for their school systems. As you've pointed out, your voters did what you felt was best for your community. Others felt differently and made other choices.

 

I would concede that the emergence of private schools are a DIRECT result on parents have a choice in their child's education. I do believe the parent's choices to use private schools increasingly has CHANGED that definition of community.

RM maybe a better word to use is Family with a capital F . Thats how it is in NKY the NCC Family ,the Brossart Family ,the Holy Cross Family etc.. The Catholic school systems are not just emerging in the Commonwealth , they have been around for many decades , with basically same infrastructure and feeder schools save for some consolidation due to changing demographics . When we finally catch up athletically after years of existence then the public schools want to take their ball and run away home. Also I believe that the independent Christian schools have emerged in the last few decades because many parents are dissatisfied with the local public schools .

Lol, no, lets all be better.

But by your own admission you said that if McCracken County would have gone to open enrollment some schools would have improved and some would have regressed. Instead of allowing some students to excell by being surrounded by like talented studenst haven't you kept all students at the same level?

 

Again why should any other school system abide by what many would say is a shortsited vote on the part of teh citizens of McCracken County?

So because the citizens of McCracken County voted to self-limit their schools in GoBigRed's system all other school systems should do the same? Forget about excelling, let's all be average.

 

I would be very interested to know where the stantardized scores for McCracken County students rank in the state.

 

My guess would be middle of the pack.

I know you have to be as tired of this argument as I am answering it.

 

The purpose/mission of a rural public school is to not educate everyone who wants to come. It's purpose/mission is to educate those in that geographical community. Thus, the election of local board of educations. If that was not the goal, than the state would set up the board of education to pull from all the surrounding areas instead of that one specific geographical community.

I would concede that the emergence of private schools are a DIRECT result on parents have a choice in their child's education. I do believe the parent's choices to use private schools increasingly has CHANGED that definition of community.

 

 

Lordy..I don't know if I have time for this debate, and the two we have going in P/R! :lol:

 

OK....

 

Here:

 

 

Early History

American public education differs from that of many other nations in that it is primarily the responsibility of the states and individual school districts. The national system of formal education in the United States developed in the 19th century. Jefferson was the first American leader to suggest creating a public school system. His ideas formed the basis of education systems developed in the 19th century.

The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire. The overriding belief on educating the children was more due to religious reasons and was easy to implement, as the only groups in existence were the Puritans and the Congregationalists. However, the influx of people from many countries and belonging to different faiths led to a weakening of the concept. People refused to learn only in English and opposed the clergy imposing their religious views through public education. By the middle of the eighteenth century, private schooling had become the norm.

 

After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education. Jefferson believed that education should be under the control of the government, free from religious biases, and available to all people irrespective of their status in society. Others who vouched for public education around the same time were Benjamin Rush, Noah Webster, Robert Coram and George Washington. It was still very difficult to translate the concept to practice because of the political upheavals, vast immigration, and economic transformations. Thus, even for many more decades, there were many private schools, and charitable and religious institutions dominating the scene.

 

 

 

The Beginning of the Public Education System

Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead.

 

 

Source:

But by your own admission you said that if McCracken County would have gone to open enrollment some schools would have improved and some would have regressed. Instead of allowing some students to excell by being surrounded by like talented studenst haven't you kept all students at the same level?

 

Again why should any other school system abide by what many would say is a shortsited vote on the part of teh citizens of McCracken County?

 

And that is ok if most of the schools and communities suffer, maybe even have to shut down?

RM, First off, I thought we were on the same side in the P & P debates.

 

After reading your post, I am not sure where we are off. While of course there were private schools throughout the 1900's, surely you would agree that they have grown as a parent's choice over the past decade? (Since KERA came into play to reference a discussion we had in Louisville)

 

Might point is that as parents have chosen private schools more and more over the past years, they are seeing their community based upon their school and religious faith over their geographical community.

 

In the same vein, I am feeling a change in my life as my faith is growing stronger and stronger everyday. I think more about how my church can further Christ's message in the multiple counties we draw from instead of the one county my old church drew from.

And, to speak only for Catholic schools, as I have no personal knowledge of other private school's missions and reasons and history:

 

 

Today the 8,000 Catholic schools across the United States are regarded as a gift to the church and a gift to the nation. But exactly when and where the first Catholic "school" began in this country -- or the names of the teacher and pupils - remains a mystery: A Spanish Franciscan with a few children in a mission outpost? A member of an early French exploration party, quietly teaching and preaching? A chaplain holding class for young ship's apprentices on the beach where some 16th-Century vessel had just anchored?

 

It's hard to say.

 

What is clear is that Catholic education goes back deep into U.S. history - to at least 1606. That year, expressing their desire "to teach children Christian doctrine, reading and writing," the Franciscans opened a school in what's now St. Augustine, Fla. Further north and a bit later, Jesuits instructed such dedicated Native American students as Kateri Tekakwitha (1656-1680), who became a Catholic in New York and taught Indian children in a Christian settlement near Montreal.

 

By the latter 1600's, English colonists had set up their own, publicly supported schools. But since all the colonies were overwhelmingly Protestant, the rudimentary education often had a heavily fundamentalist Protestant (if not blatantly anti-Catholic) cast. Even in Catholic-founded Maryland, Catholics were a minority, although with a bit more freedom, and in 1677, in Newtown, the Jesuits established a preparatory school, mostly to instruct boys considered candidates for later seminary study in Europe. The Newtown school eventually closed, but the Jesuits opened another in the 1740's at Bohemia Manor, Md. Well into the 18th Century, however, more-affluent parents often chose overseas schools for their children, including girls dispatched to European convent schools. Meanwhile the Catholic population continued to expand, reaching approximately 25,000 in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York State alone by about 1776.

 

 

More here....

It's purpose/mission is to educate those in that geographical community.

 

Why is that the mission? Where is that written in stone? I would concede that a small district with only one high school may be limited as you say but that would be the only concession I would make and I would still maintain that there are exceptions to that. As was stated by another in this thread, some small communities (Fort Thomas jumps to mind) allow open enrollment while still maintaining a very strong sense of community and as an academic institution they have thrived.

 

It has been and will remain my position that rigid district boundaries are a CHOICE made by individual schools and/or school districts. They choose weather or not to allow students from outside those boundaries to be admitted. As such they are self limiting restrictions and those schools that choose to adhere to those restrictions are being grossly unfair when they expect all other to abide by the same self limitations.

 

Many private schools have higher academic standards for participation in athletic then the KHSAA mandates. Should all schools be expected to abide by those standards because some schools choose to?

Why is that the mission? Where is that written in stone? I would concede that a small district with only one high school may be limited as you say but that would be the only concession I would make and I would still maintain that there are exceptions to that. As was stated by another in this thread, some small communities (Fort Thomas jumps to mind) allow open enrollment while still maintaining a very strong sense of community and as an academic institution they have thrived.

 

It has been and will remain my position that rigid district boundaries are a CHOICE made by individual schools and/or school districts. They choose weather or not to allow students from outside those boundaries to be admitted. As such they are self limiting restrictions and those schools that choose to adhere to those restrictions are being grossly unfair when they expect all other to abide by the same self limitations.

 

Many private schools have higher academic standards for participation in athletic then the KHSAA mandates. Should all schools be expected to abide by those standards because some schools choose to?

And to understand my post you need to know that I am from a school district as you mentioned. One middle school and one high school to serve the whole county. NO other choice, private or public, in our county. There are a lot of rural counties that are similar throughout this state.

 

If we knew who voted for what in October, I believe you would find that these type of counties are the core of those that voted FOR Prop 20. IMVHO

 

As far as your post on academics, there are minimum standards that all choose. If a school wants to have higher standards, than that is their choice.