If he moves his grip off-center and doesn't supinate, he's throwing a cutter not a slider.

If he moves his grip off-center and doesn't supinate, he's throwing a cutter not a slider.

 

^This is correct. A slider cannot be thrown without snapping the wrist (although you don't really twist your hand underneath the ball). While you see a few high school pitchers throwing a slider, it is not usually taught until college, and I wouldn't recommend anyone under 16 or 17 even attempting to throw it.

If he moves his grip off-center and doesn't supinate, he's throwing a cutter not a slider.

even a cutter would be a great pitch if he can throw it.

Actually BlueTip and Hellbird a "Cutter" is thrown to where you do supinate. Example Right Hander: Pronation Pitches - Fastball, Sinker and Change. They are thrown at 12:00 moving counter clockwise on the baseball. A Cutter is thrown moving clockwise on the baseball which is a supination pitch at about 1:00-1:30. Moving the hand a little further clockwise creates the slider. Obviously it would be the exact opposite for a Left Hander.

 

even a cutter would be a great pitch if he can throw it.

Nope. A cutter is a fastball and is thrown like a fastball. You just adjust your grip. Mariano Rivera's arm naturally pronates on his cutter. He doesn't supinate. If Mo supinated on 80+% of his pitches (as you suggest) he would have had Tommy John surgery 3 times at least by now.

 

 

Some guys teach to turn your wrist in a bit and lock it in place to throw the cutter. I don't think that's a must. If you get good movement on a regular off-center grip and release, you don't need to lock the wrist.

Edited March 1, 201313 yr by BlueTip

Don't really want to get into a p*.... match on this. But here is just a little info.

 

True to form, the supination angle of Lincecum's cutter lies somewhere between that of his fastball and slider, with just a slight tilt from a straight-forward fastball position. In theory, a pitcher can find several breaking-ball variations with respect to velocity and snap by toying with the angle of supination, and players such as Yu Darvish are able to add or subtract from velocity and break by adjusting the position of the forearm to create a handful of distinct breaking pitches. The difference between Lincecum’s cutter, slider, and curve ball is measured in degrees of supination.

 

Timmy's only off-speed offering is a splitter, for which he uses a claw-like grip with index and middle fingers spread outside the seams at the top of the horseshoe. Often labeled as a change-up, what distinguishes Lincecum's split from a traditional cambio is the lack of early pronation, with a fastball forearm-angle when the splitter comes out to play. In this case, the decreased velocity comes from a deep grip that increases the frictional forces between the pitching hand and the baseball. A typical change-up will involve pre-set pronation that goes beyond the two-seam fastball, with pitchers utilizing myriad grip patterns such as the circle-change in order to get a feel for the proper forearm angle. The change-up is a “feel” pitch that some pitchers struggle to capture, making it one of the toughest pitches to harness consistently.

 

Go to Baseball Prospectus | Raising Aces: Six Degrees of Supination to get your answer.

 

Quick quiz: What pitch is Roy Halladay throwing in the picture on the left? On the right?

 

 

 

In the end, it all boils down to semantics. Dan Haren throws a cutter that looks more like a typical slider, but I would not question Haren's choice of nomenclature, as he is the one with an intimate connection with the pitch. A pitcher's pet names for the arrows in his quiver might defy our commonly accepted archetypes of a pitch, but the labels are completely dependent on the player. Mechanically, a cutter is defined based on the pitcher's relative supination angles on his slider and fastball, but his own choice of terminology could come from grip, feel, velocity, trajectory, or the response that the pitch elicits from dejected batters as they walk back to the dugout.

 

At the National Pitching Association, we would advise pitchers to name their offerings based on the preferences of scouts and coaches, as there are certain pitch combinations that are viewed as favorable within the community of baseball evaluators. Often, a curveball would be re-dubbed a “power slider” in order to give a particular impression, and I have witnessed scouts who will grade a pitch based partly on the expectations created by the name attached to the offering. A player can name his slider “rosebud” for all I care, as long as it gets results.

 

Quiz Answer: On the left, Halladay is throwing a curve. On the right, he's throwing a cutter.

 

 

Nope. A cutter is a fastball and is thrown like a fastball. You just adjust your grip. Mariano Rivera's arm naturally pronates on his cutter. He doesn't supinate. If Mo supinated on 80+% of his pitches (as you suggest) he would have had Tommy John surgery 3 times at least by now.

 

 

Some guys teach to turn your wrist in a bit and lock it in place to throw the cutter. I don't think that's a must. If you get good movement on a regular off-center grip and release, you don't need to lock the wrist.

Here is some pretty good proof that Mariano does Supinate on his cutter.

 

So what NKY teams are Rivera, Lincecum and Hallady trying out for?

 

 

Maybe this topic needs to be under it's own header so I don't have to read about the fundamentals of pitches if I'm looking for info on tryouts......good info though...

 

Just a thought.....

Here is some pretty good proof that Mariano does Supinate on his cutter.

 

 

Loved that video……thanks for sharing.

You are welcome WTF32. If your son plays for Midland, I'm quite sure they would they would be able to tell him the better pitch to learn to throw, that will not create stress on his arm. BlueTip and I just have a difference of opion on this matter. I stick to my guns on this, as I'm sure he does.

 

Loved that video……thanks for sharing.

You are welcome WTF32. If your son plays for Midland, I'm quite sure they would they would be able to tell him the better pitch to learn to throw, that will not create stress on his arm. BlueTip and I just have a difference of opion on this matter. I stick to my guns on this, as I'm sure he does.

 

yes...what they look for is a kid that can throw a killer fastball and change up off it...then introduce them to the 12-6 curve (no more than 5 a game or bullpen)...they are looking to develop local kids for the big club Redskins so they don't have to depend on southern kids to fill the void. that goes for any position not just pitcher.

Very familiar with Midland and know that they are always trying to get kids from this area to make it to their Redskins team. Midland has wanted my friends son for quite a few years now.

 

yes...what they look for is a kid that can throw a killer fastball and change up off it...then introduce them to the 12-6 curve (no more than 5 a game or bullpen)...they are looking to develop local kids for the big club Redskins so they don't have to depend on southern kids to fill the void. that goes for any position not just pitcher.