offside

It's a judgment call based on the definition of a "catch". Your question is based on an NCAA game, but since this is a HS forum and the basics are the same, here's the NFHS definition of what is a catch: Rule 2-4-1...A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds... I didn't see the play (I was being booed elsewhere), but it sounds like the official judged that the receiver did not "possess" or "catch" the ball before his knee hit out of bounds. The NCAA rules also includes the phrase "in his firm grasp" within the definition of catch and "when in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed".

1. Rule 3-1-3...a period or periods may be shortened...by agreement of the opposing coaches and the referee. (Refs ain't gonna argue with a quick clock in a JV game, sorry.) 2. JV games are a great opportunity for young players, young coaches and young refs to get game experience. Mistakes happen with all involved. Please don't disparage players, coaches or refs at JV games. 3. Please post any question for the refs at any time. THERE ARE MANY OF US LURKING ABOUT AT ALL TIMES! WE ARE FALLING OVER OURSELVES FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK UP THE ANSWER AND POST IT FOR YOU ON BGP. IF YOU POST IT, WE WILL ANSWER!

Eh, I think they were probably clueless. And, as you probably already know, I'm the biggest ref-apologist you will ever meet. :walk: But "playing till the whistle blows" is becoming an antiquated philosophy. I'm a bit ashamed that the refs in this game didn't hold up their end of that agreement.

In fairness to you coach, I think it was a bad call by the officials. In most cases, I do not advocate the philosophy of "playing till the whistle blows". The game has changed, and I think "playing till the whistle" is used as an excuse for a lack of awareness far too much. But in this case, well, they could've tackled the guy.

I think the video shows that it's close enough that the officials should have blown the whistle. But they didn't. That tells me that they saw it differently. My initial reaction was that it was a bad call; but after a few rewinds, maybe the defense celebrated prematurely. Right or wrong, it was still a cheap way to win a game.

We should either have false start against the offense or encroachment against the defense. If we can't figure out who jumped first, we should call false start on the offense. But I suppose there could be some strange reason why they decided it was more fair to offset the fouls. :idunno: By the way, offside (singular, no "s" on the end) is an NCAA and NFL foul against the defense. It's not in the highschool rulebook. If you hear anybody use the term at a highschool game, please correct them.

Rule 2-28-1...The neutral zone is the space between...the two scrimmage lines during a scrimmage down. Basically, it's the length of the football. The offensive line of scrimmage is the point of the ball nearest their goal line, and the defensive line of scrimmage is at the other point of the ball. But it can be expanded... Rule 2-28-2...The neutral zone may be expanded following the snap up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage, in the field of play, during any scrimmage down. The neutral zone is "expanded" to allow an offensive player to block a defender and drive him up to 2 yards beyond his line of scrimmage. It also allows a defender to block the kick within that 2 yard belt without it being considered "touching". But it doesn't sound like the expanded neutral zone is a factor because "such touching is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball" whether within the expanded neutral zone or not. So, if the defender was not being blocked behind his line of scrimmage (and the touching was not an attempt to block the kick within the expanded neutral zone) and the ball touched him, K can gain possession.

:ohbrother: We will have extra ball-tossing practice after our next officials meeting. Get well soon Chelsea, and thank you very much for showing the boys how to be tough!

I'm unable to copy/paste the Running Clock Memo and Notes, but it's also available on the KHSAA website http://www.khsaa.org/football/general.html

This is available on the KHSAA website http://www.khsaa.org/football/general.html GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR FOOTBALL CLOCK OPERATORS A. The clock operator should report to the officials’ dressing room at the stadium at least one hour before game time for the following purposes. 1. To synchronize timer’s watch with official game time as established by the official responsible for timing. 2. To advise officials whether the clock operator will be in the press box or on the sideline. Determine procedure for communication with timer and check this procedure prior to the game. 3. To discuss coordination of starting, stopping and adjusting the clock in accordance with the playing rules. B. The field clock is normally started 30 minutes before game time. The halftime intermission will start on the referee’s signal when the players and officials leave the field. All pregame and halftime activities will be synchronized with the official game clock. The mandatory three-minute warm-up period will be put on the clock after the intermission time has elapsed and shall be started immediately. C. The clock operator shall have an extra stopwatch available. In case of failure of the game clock, the clock operator shall immediately contact the officials, giving them the correct data regarding the official time. The official responsible for timing will then pick up the correct game time on the stopwatch. If the field clock becomes inoperative and is subsequently repaired, it will not be used again until the next period or when the referee determines it is operational. The public-address announcer will indicate the field clock will not be official until the malfunction is corrected and a subsequent announcement is made on the public-address system. D. Game Procedures: 1. The clock operator is an integral member of the officiating crew and game administration. Unfair advantages occur when the game clock is not started correctly by rule. Great care must be exercised to see that no time lag occurs in starting or stopping the clock. 2. On all free kicks, the nearest official(s) will signal the legal touching of the ball by indicating that the clock should start. 3. Any official may signal a time-out; therefore, the operator should be alert to stop the clock. 4. The incompletion signal will stop the clock. Note: On plays near the out-of-bounds line and in advance of the line to gain, an official may give a winding signal to indicate the ball is inbounds and follow it by a stopthe- clock signal for an apparent first down. Be alert for both signals. 5. The clock operator will automatically stop the clock following a touchdown, field goal, touchback or safety after the appropriate scoring signal has been made. 6. After the clock has been stopped, the referee will start it again on the referee’s start-the-clock signal and if no such signal is given, the operator will start the clock on the snap without the signal from the referee. 7. The referee may start the clock again in certain instances before the ready-for-play signal. 8. The try is not a timed down. 9. There are instances when a period shall be extended by an untimed down. During these extensions, leave the clock at :00. Do not reset the clock for the next period until the referee declares the period over by facing the press box and holding the ball overhead. 10. Each state association may decide whether or not to utilize a running clock in certain situations, and the procedures for those situations. 09 ®

That's incorrect. Frequently, the clock will start on the ready for play signal after a foul. (I presumed you knew this and did not type all of 3-4-2). Rule 3-4-2...The clock shall start with the ready for play... b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided: 1. There has been no charged time out during the dead ball interval. 2. The down is not an extension of a period or try. 3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.

#1. My advice to you is for you to hope that the whitehat knows rule 3-4-3 as well as you do (I will provide it to you below). If he forgets to wind it and you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it's supposed to run, RUN IT. (Especially if another official is winding it). We can always fix it by adding more time to the clock if you're wrong; but it's a lot harder to fix it the other way. #2. It's not correct, but you can't do anything about this as a clock keeper. The referee should apply Rule 3-4-6...When a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock started or stopped. Please don't interject yourself into this one. Print this out and keep it in the pressbox with you: Rule 3-4-2...The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal on a down beginning with a snap if the clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in Rule 3-4-3 or an untimed down. Rule 3-4-3...The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because: a. The ball goes out of bounds. b. B is awarded a new series. (Turnover on downs, fumble recovery or interception). c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick. d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line. (Touchback). e. A legal or illegal pass is incomplete. f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted. g. A period ends. h. A team attempts to consume time illegally. (Referee's call, not the clock keeper). i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.

6-6-4...Any K player may catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone or the expanded neutral zone, provided such kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching. Such touching is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or it is caused by K legally batting or muffing the ball into R. Such catch or recovery by K beyond the neutral zone causes the ball to become dead. 5-1-3...a new series is awarded to: (f) The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless a penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended. Punting team's ball, first and 10 at the spot of recovery. (Line to gain is irrelevant and the partial block of the kick in or behind the neutral zone is ignored). Clock starts on the snap because K was awarded a new series following a legal kick (3-4-3c).

C'mon, Clyde. I did not invent the "if in doubt..." principles.

No, there is no wording that prevents the action from being ruled a hold. My opinion is based on the runner being beyond the defender when restraint was demonstrated.

I assure you that my opinion is correct on the non-holding call. As to the "fumble": :deadhorse:

No offense taken. The replay clearly shows that it was a fumble. High school officials are simply not used to having multiple angles of instant replay and NFL commentators critiquing their work. Otherwise, they'd already be in a BCS college town most Friday nights. That's my only point.

I'd say that's a pretty sound philosophy. And of course I know that I'm defending a call that is disputable via replay. I've missed a few of those myself.:isurrender:

I think that play gets ruled a fumble in a highschool game less than 10% of the time--"If in doubt, the runner is down." We don't want any cheap fumbles. That's not to say that that philosophy is always correct, but we don't have IR to fall back on. In an Division 1 NCAA game, it's ruled a fumble because instant replay can correct the call--"If in doubt, the runner is not down." I agree with the no-call on the suspect hold. The runner was past the defender when the restriction occurred.

That's the way we want it called (or not called). A little jersey grabbing means nothing. Let 'em play. I thought it was a pretty well-officiated game. Remember, officials don't have the benefit of instant replay at this level and use very different "if in doubt" principles because of that fact. It's pretty easy to ref a football game from the comfort of the couch with the DVR remote in hand. I know, I do it too.

Is there a difference between your play and the one from the '53 Cotton Bowl? Why USC? What's the difference between Illegal Participation...9-6-3 or 9-6-4a, and UnfairActs...9-9-1? Are you sure a dead ball foul or awarding a score is correct? Is there a casebook play?

1953 Cotton Bowl, Rice v. Alabama: The Owls had beaten Texas, 18-13, in Austin, and smothered the Aggies, 34-7, in Houston. By the time the New Year's Day Cotton Bowl match with Alabama loomed, the Taylor, Texas, scatback was on a roll. Against the Tide, he struck early and often. The day's stats would show, in a 28-6 victory, that Maegle rolled to 265 yards in only eleven carries, scoring three times, still a Cotton Bowl record. But the carry of the day was one that will live in the annals of college football history. In the second quarter, with the Owls already up 7-0, they set up shop on their own five yard line. Maegle took a quick pitch, broke off-tackle, and headed for the sidelines. With nothing but daylight ahead, he was headed for a 95-yard touchdown run. On the 'Bama bench, Tommy Lewis, a reserve back, had had all he could take. Maegle was in the clear, at the Alabama 40, when Lewis burst off the bench to bring him down. Confusion reigned; the officials huddled. Coach Neely dashed across the field, challenging Tide coach Harold "Red" Drew. "Rayud, Rayud," he drawled, "what did yo boy think he was doin'?" Lewis moaned, "Coach, I was jus' so full of Ala-bahma." The officials awarded Rice the TD; the Owls won going away-- and both players later traveled to New York to tell about it on the Ed Sullivan show. Dickie Maegle later said he felt like Ed Sullivan treated him like the heel and Tommy Lewis like a hero. "Heck, I was the one who scored the touchdown!" he said. In any event, for years it was considered THE most famous play in college football history. And even with the demise of historical perspective by today's media and fans, it still ranks as one of the greatest -- and probably the most bizarre.

It would require very obvious intent to interfere, with the act having a material effect on the outcome of the game, in a situation similar to the referee awarding a score to the offended team for an unfair act.

Rule 8, Table 1: Point Values: Forfeited Game: Game score is: Offended Team: 1, Opponent: 0. But if offended team is ahead, the score stands.

Personal fouls do not carry an automatic first down in highschool. Encroachment on the defense is a dead ball foul in highschool; it is offside (not plural) in NCAA and the defender may get back out of the neutral zone prior to the snap to avoid a foul.