Actually, I did... but please don't call me "Shirley"...

 

(I know, I know... it works better spoken than written... but I just had to...)

 

I quoted you because you said, "I would be interested in seeing any data that she has to back up the claim." Clyde opened the thread with, "When will we learn not to make generalizations that have zero substance, proof, or accuracy?"

 

I made clear that I am in no way backing her claim of "most illegal immigrants smuggle drugs" but I think it's pretty clear from the evidence I provided, there is valid proof that a measurable percentage do.

 

You asked for "any data"... Clyde infered the need for something beyond "zero substance, proof, or accuracy." I merely offered "some" valid data/proof/evidence that the governor isn't totally spinning out of orbit. :thumb:

 

I missed your data. Point it out for me. Also, if you are going to attribute a comment to someone, make sure that it is to the correct individual. In quoting only me, you made it seem as if I had made such a comment. :thumb:

Its irresponsible for the Gov to make such a comment even if its hyperbole.

 

Just like I learned in Logic 101, just because a)drug smugglers are criminals b)US arrested Latinos crossing the border with drugs then saying c)all Latinos crossing the border are drug smugglers is not true.

 

I can see where someone without much thought might post such a claim on a board but its beyond my ability to rationalize to think that the Governor of a state would utter such nonsense.

You should know I respect you Clyde... if you don't, you do now. You offer well thought out posts and fuel for thought... BUT, you are doing exactly what you're accusing the good Governor of doing.

 

Your statement that she said, "...all Latinos crossing the border are drug smugglers..." is also hyperbole. She said, "most" not "all".

 

I too would be interested to see evidence she has to support "most", but to suggest she said "all" or that there is "zero" basis for her statements... with all due respect, ring of hyperbole as well.

I missed your data. Point it out for me. Also, if you are going to attribute a comment to someone, make sure that it is to the correct individual. In quoting only me, you made it seem as if I had made such a comment. :thumb:

If I recall correctly, you are a science teacher. As such, I do not have time to dig for empirical "data" that may satisfy your stringent request. I merely offered "evidence" along the lines of that acceptible in a legal matter that could be substantiated. It took five minutes, which is more than enough to satisfy my concern that the governor is not spinning off with no substance to her claims. From what any of us know, it appears that she may be exaggerating to state "most". Without further support/proof from her to validate her claim, it does seem she is overstepping.

 

On the otherhand, to deny there is any "proof" that at least some, if not a substantial number of illegal immigrants are transporting drugs and crime into our nation is, well... just as absurd IMO.

The governor said most illegal immigrants are smuggling drugs across the border. Evidence that some do so does not support her claim. If someone made the claim that most Catholic priests were child rapists, pointing to the cases involving that would not support the claim.

The governor said most illegal immigrants are smuggling drugs across the border. Evidence that some do so does not support her claim. If someone made the claim that most Catholic priests were child rapists, pointing to the cases involving that would not support the claim.

 

:thumb: Thank you for making my case for me.

If I recall correctly, you are a science teacher. As such, I do not have time to dig for empirical "data" that may satisfy your stringent request. I merely offered "evidence" along the lines of that acceptible in a legal matter that could be substantiated. It took five minutes, which is more than enough to satisfy my concern that the governor is not spinning off with no substance to her claims. From what any of us know, it appears that she may be exaggerating to state "most". Without further support/proof from her to validate her claim, it does seem she is overstepping.

 

On the otherhand, to deny there is any "proof" that at least some, if not a substantial number of illegal immigrants are transporting drugs and crime into our nation is, well... just as absurd IMO.

 

See my above post. There is a large difference between "some" and "substantial," even taking into consideration how ambiguous both words are. However, given that the governor's word was "most" I will take any data that shows that more than 50% of the illegals are drug smugglers. I will also accept from her that she misspoke or chose her words poorly.

How about this then. ALL illegal aliens are criminals?

How about this then. ALL illegal aliens are criminals?

Come on AT... they aren't really "illegal aliens" but merely "Undocumented Democrats"...

 

...and the fact that Governor Brewer (a filthy, racist Republican by the way) may have "chosen her words poorly" is proof she has no genuine basis for concern with "Undocumented Democrats" streaming across the Arizona/Mexico border... enough of whom bringing drugs and crime that the Bureau of Land Management has posted signs warning U.S. citizens to avoid areas of a U.S. state and the National Park Service has closed half of a National Park to tourists due to criminal activities is entirely irrelevant to the Governor's clearly over inflated and racist worries.

 

Reminds me of Obi Wan Kenobi.... "These are not the droids you seek..."

You should know I respect you Clyde... if you don't, you do now. You offer well thought out posts and fuel for thought... BUT, you are doing exactly what you're accusing the good Governor of doing.

 

Your statement that she said, "...all Latinos crossing the border are drug smugglers..." is also hyperbole. She said, "most" not "all".

 

I too would be interested to see evidence she has to support "most", but to suggest she said "all" or that there is "zero" basis for her statements... with all due respect, ring of hyperbole as well.

 

Fair enough on my misuse of her adjective.

 

My argument is still the same.

 

Thank you for the kind words.

Come on AT... they aren't really "illegal aliens" but merely "Undocumented Democrats"...

 

...and the fact that Governor Brewer (a filthy, racist Republican by the way) may have "chosen her words poorly" is proof she has no genuine basis for concern with "Undocumented Democrats" streaming across the Arizona/Mexico border... enough of whom bringing drugs and crime that the Bureau of Land Management has posted signs warning U.S. citizens to avoid areas of a U.S. state and the National Park Service has closed half of a National Park to tourists due to criminal activities is entirely irrelevant to the Governor's clearly over inflated and racist worries.

 

Reminds me of Obi Wan Kenobi.... "These are not the droids you seek..."

 

That's pretty wild...connecting words that I said with words that I didn't...and wouldn't. It's not appreciated. I guess that it's fine by you when people bash Obama and question every little thing that he does and says (I don't see you harping on the posters who say that he is intent on destroying our country), but merely suggesting that the governor provide some substantiation for a fairly extreme comment (or that perhaps she just chose her words poorly) is over the top.

 

I would assume that some sort of records exist. X number of illegal immigrants were apprehended in Arizona last year. Y number were found to be smuggling drugs. Y/X x 100 would give us at least a rough estimate of what the problem is.

 

I don't know what the number would be. Maybe it's pretty high. Maybe it's pretty low. I don't know. When you do, let me know.

That's pretty wild...connecting words that I said with words that I didn't...and wouldn't. It's not appreciated. I guess that it's fine by you when people bash Obama and question every little thing that he does and says (I don't see you harping on the posters who say that he is intent on destroying our country), .

You're taking personally something I never intended to be personal. I was merely addressing the general theme of this thread, of which your posts are included.

 

Whether B.O. is actively and willfully attempting to destroy our nation, or merely so deeply entrenched in far left ideology to see how detrimental his policies are, or merely so naive and inexperienced he genuinely doesn't know any better... the bottom line is you can put me in the category of people who believe he is not making things better for all (or even a majority of) Americans. Therefore, I have no reason to harp on those I believe have some basis for beliefs I share in general if not on every specific detail.

 

...but merely suggesting that the governor provide some substantiation for a fairly extreme comment (or that perhaps she just chose her words poorly) is over the top.

I never said that requesting "some" substantiation for words I agree sound a bit hyperbolic is over the top. I provided "some" substantiation and it is clear you want "total" substantiation, not "some". That to me is a bit stringent… but certainly your prerogative.

 

I would assume that some sort of records exist. X number of illegal immigrants were apprehended in Arizona last year. Y number were found to be smuggling drugs. Y/X x 100 would give us at least a rough estimate of what the problem is.

 

I don't know what the number would be. Maybe it's pretty high. Maybe it's pretty low. I don't know. When you do, let me know.

I too would be interested in that data as well, but do not have the time to research it to prove a point that I believe has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. “There is a problem with illegal aliens traversing the Arizona border. There are some if not many or most who – in addition to being in the U.S. illegally – are compounding their illegal impact by smuggling in illicit drugs, weapons and the crimes that go with this trade.”

 

Whether the Governor is correct in her specific statement that “most” illegals sneaking into Arizona are drug mules or not. There can be no legitimate argument against the fact that illegals and especially those smuggling drugs, weapons and crime are a significant problem in Arizona and the U.S.

 

I equate her comments to anyone describing an overwhelming emergency. “There were flames and dead bodies everywhere.” Really? Everywhere? Not really, but I can certainly understand how it might seem like it in the heat of the moment.

 

If her statement is accurate, she should produce some form of proof. If not, she should amend her statement and possibly apologize. Either way, I find it amazing that sentient, intelligent adults fall for the deception of assassinating the character and invalidating the legitimate concerns of this governor over the lack of precision in her words.

 

Is no one outraged to learn that large tracts of public lands in the U.S. and a National Park are closed to public use due to Mexican smuggling and crime within our borders? Is that really a state of affairs you believe is appropriate in America? Is that an acceptable level of performance by our Federal government? Is it truly racist to state that it is "Mexican" drug cartels doing the greatest damage in this area?

 

Really?

I never said that requesting "some" substantiation for words I agree sound a bit hyperbolic is over the top. I provided "some" substantiation and it is clear you want "total" substantiation, not "some". That to me is a bit stringent… but certainly your prerogative.

 

You did not provide any substantiation that over 50% of illegals are smuggling drugs. I'll concede that "some" do, no doubt.

 

I too would be interested in that data as well, but do not have the time to research it to prove a point that I believe has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. “There is a problem with illegal aliens traversing the Arizona border. There are some if not many or most who – in addition to being in the U.S. illegally – are compounding their illegal impact by smuggling in illicit drugs, weapons and the crimes that go with this trade.”

 

To whom is that quote attributed to?

 

If her statement is accurate, she should produce some form of proof. If not, she should amend her statement and possibly apologize. Either way, I find it amazing that sentient, intelligent adults fall for the deception of assassinating the character and invalidating the legitimate concerns of this governor over the lack of precision in her words.

 

I've read through the whole thread twice now. Who is assassinating her character? If she simply misspoke, that's fine. But I'm not hearing that from her. If she has statistics to back her up, present them, and that's fine. But I'm not hearing that from her, either. I'm simply led to believe that she is using hyperbole to enflame those that she would like to garner more support from. That sentence right there is the roughest one in this thread, as it regards her character. Tough, I know. :lol:

 

As to your other questions:

Is no one outraged to learn that large tracts of public lands in the U.S. and a National Park are closed to public use due to Mexican smuggling and crime within our borders? I don't know if outraged is the right word for my feelings...perhaps greatly concerned fits better

Is that really a state of affairs you believe is appropriate in America? No

Is that an acceptable level of performance by our Federal government? No

Is it truly racist to state that it is "Mexican" drug cartels doing the greatest damage in this area? The statement is not racist, IMO. I do not know of it's accuracy.

 

Now, my question to you and others. nWo linked an article that quotes McCain as stating that he does not agree with the governor's statement. RTS is the only one to attempt to address it. I assume that if you didn't vote for Obama, that you likely voted for McCain. Who do you believe - Senator McCain or Governor Brewer?

Now, my question to you and others. nWo linked an article that quotes McCain as stating that he does not agree with the governor's statement. RTS is the only one to attempt to address it. I assume that if you didn't vote for Obama, that you likely voted for McCain. Who do you believe - Senator McCain or Governor Brewer?

I did indeed hold my nose and pull the lever for Johnny Mac rather than B.O. as the lesser of two weevils... (I can't bring myself to call either of them "evil"... at least not just yet.)

 

Aside from the remark in question that gave me a sinking feeling when I first heard it for what does indeed smack of hyperbole, my confidence is far greater in Governor Brewer's assessment of the problem in Arizona than in McCain's. He's been in Washington too long and is far too concerned with getting reelected and trying to please too many possible voters to see, much less acknowledge what's happening on the ground in his home state.

It would be hard either way. Obviously there are plenty of illegals coming into Arizona (and the US). The only ones that are caught are likely the only ones who do something wrong (i.e., arrested for a crime, then found to be illegal). So the stats undoubtedly say that 100% of illegals caught are criminals, although we all know that, while the smuggling rate might be high, that isn't entirely true.

 

 

100% of them are criminals, they are breaking the law by coming here whether its with drugs or without.....hence the name illegals.

AZ Gov. Brewer made the claim that most illegals are smuggling drugs into the country.

 

100% of them are criminals, they are breaking the law by coming here whether its with drugs or without.....hence the name illegals.

 

My reply was simply in response to what Governor Brewer claimed: that "most illegals are smuggling drugs into the country." Obviously they are illegally entering the country, but that wasn't the original question.