How were they overhyped, when a lot of top schools were after those guys to that he got? I think the main reason why it might seem like they were overhyped is because he didn't do a good enough job of coaching up all the guys. Yeah some of the guys ended up doing well, but for the most part a lot of his top talent he got, didn't produce. Also If he would have paid more attention to getting to defensive guys, he probably would still have his job. Hopefully Brian Kelly learned from this and pays more attention to getting that defense better, even though he is also an offensive guy too.

 

I'm not talking about guys like Clausen, Te'o or Rudolph. I'm talking about the other guys in the classes. ND recruits always get a major upgrade on the star scale on websites. ND's OL, RB, and most of their defense the last few years have not lived up to their billing have they?:idunno:

I'm not talking about guys like Clausen, Te'o or Rudolph. I'm talking about the other guys in the classes. ND recruits always get a major upgrade on the star scale on websites. ND's OL, RB, and most of their defense the last few years have not lived up to their billing have they?:idunno:

 

No they have not. IMO though I don't thin it was because they were overhyped, it was that they were not coached up enough. Even the most talented guys, when they get to college have to have coaches be able to coach them up. I don't think Weis was very good at that.

 

So we are in agreement that those guys with a lot of stars have not lived up to the hype. However instead of thinking they were just overhyped like you do, I think they just wasn't coached up that well. BK is coming into a pretty good situation with a lot of talent, even though he did lose his best two players. I think under him we will see that talent start to show more in the other players.

No they have not. IMO though I don't thin it was because they were overhyped, it was that they were not coached up enough. Even the most talented guys, when they get to college have to have coaches be able to coach them up. I don't think Weis was very good at that.

 

So we are in agreement that those guys with a lot of stars have not lived up to the hype. However instead of thinking they were just overhyped like you do, I think they just wasn't coached up that well. BK is coming into a pretty good situation with a lot of talent, even though he did lose his best two players. I think under him we will see that talent start to show more in the other players.

 

Yeah because Charlie Weis knows nothing about developing talent. Do you honestly think ND had the same amount of talent as USC, UF, Bama, Texas & other schools like that? The star rankings probably say they were pretty close but in reality they weren't even in the same ball park. Most ND recruits are overhyped IMO, and that's something that's not going to change. You say the talent will start to show, I say there's not that much talent left to begin with. Floyd, Rudolph, Te'o and who else?

Yeah because Charlie Weis knows nothing about developing talent. Do you honestly think ND had the same amount of talent as USC, UF, Bama, Texas & other schools like that? The star rankings probably say they were pretty close but in reality they weren't even in the same ball park. Most ND recruits are overhyped IMO, and that's something that's not going to change. You say the talent will start to show, I say there's not that much talent left to begin with. Floyd, Rudolph, Te'o and who else?

 

You named the names of guys who already have started to show their talent. My whole argument here is that Weis didn't do a good job at coaching up most of the guys. I really do believe that there is a lot of talent there that he brought in. Most of these guys that you say were overhyped, were getting looks by some of the same schools you just mentioned. The only difference is those programs had coaches who knew how to even keep coaching up that talent.

You named the names of guys who already have started to show their talent. My whole argument here is that Weis didn't do a good job at coaching up most of the guys. I really do believe that there is a lot of talent there that he brought in. Most of these guys that you say were overhyped, were getting looks by some of the same schools you just mentioned. The only difference is those programs had coaches who knew how to even keep coaching up that talent.

 

Which guys are you talking about? They had all kinds of defensive talent lat year didn't they? Allen was a great RB wasn't he? There was no talent there and still isn't compared to the people they are suppose to beat. Name off some players please.

 

And getting looks, everyone gets looks. Outside of the guys mentioned which players do they have that they beat USC or Florida for? Ohio State? Michigan? Guys those teams seriously wanted.

Which guys are you talking about? They had all kinds of defensive talent lat year didn't they? Allen was a great RB wasn't he? There was no talent there and still isn't compared to the people they are suppose to beat. Name off some players please.

 

And getting looks, everyone gets looks. Outside of the guys mentioned which players do they have that they beat USC or Florida for? Ohio State? Michigan? Guys those teams seriously wanted.

 

You know what I can't name names, because no one really stands out. All I know is, if I remember correctly. Notre Dame for the past three or so years has been bringing in top 10 classes, and sometimes top 5 classes. I think your way off base in saying, those players got overrated because they went to Notre Dame. Shoot you could say the same thing about players who go to USC, Florida, etc. The guys they were getting were rated high before they even got them usually. It just comes down to that Weis was not good at coaching them up. I don't even know why we are having this discussion. Most people agree that Weis brought in very talented classes. That talent has not really shown much though, because he has not done a good job with coaching them up, and that is my whole point. I think BK will do a better job with that talent. Weis was a very good recruiter, and hopefully BK can take advantage of the recruits he had brought in.

You know what I can't name names, because no one really stands out. All I know is, if I remember correctly. Notre Dame for the past three or so years has been bringing in top 10 classes, and sometimes top 5 classes. I think your way off base in saying, those players got overrated because they went to Notre Dame. Shoot you could say the same thing about players who go to USC, Florida, etc. The guys they were getting were rated high before they even got them usually. It just comes down to that Weis was not good at coaching them up. I don't even know why we are having this discussion. Most people agree that Weis brought in very talented classes. That talent has not really shown much though, because he has not done a good job with coaching them up, and that is my whole point. I think BK will do a better job with that talent. Weis was a very good recruiter, and hopefully BK can take advantage of the recruits he had brought in.

 

It's all Charlie's fault? No BK and whoever else goes there is going to show that ND just cannot get the same kind of players anymore that the other bigs schools get.

 

Did Notre Dame look like an SEC team to you? Why do you think Meyer won't leave for ND? It's his dream job but he realizes that those academic requirements kill ND's recruiting. That takes them out of contention for some of the hotspots of national recruiting. Most people that say ND brought in talented classes couldn't be more wrong IMO. ND doesn't have 6 players that would start on Bama, UF, Texas, or someone like that.

 

Notre Dame is no where near the talent level of the big boys and never will be again. Brian Kelly is the savior? Because he won the pathetic Big East? We saw how good Cincinnati really was in the Bowl game, so it's not like they beat all kinds of teams they shouldn't have. IF ND was so talented even someone like Weis couldn't screw it up. They don't have the talent, and I think even an ND fan that is realistic would have to agree.

 

And there's no discussion. Only someone that is extremely biased would think Notre Dame has anywhere near the amount of talent as other top 10 or 15 programs. What a joke, are you serious?:idunno:

It's all Charlie's fault? No BK and whoever else goes there is going to show that ND just cannot get the same kind of players anymore that the other bigs schools get.

 

Did Notre Dame look like an SEC team to you? Why do you think Meyer won't leave for ND? It's his dream job but he realizes that those academic requirements kill ND's recruiting. That takes them out of contention for some of the hotspots of national recruiting. Most people that say ND brought in talented classes couldn't be more wrong IMO. ND doesn't have 6 players that would start on Bama, UF, Texas, or someone like that.

 

Notre Dame is no where near the talent level of the big boys and never will be again. Brian Kelly is the savior? Because he won the pathetic Big East? We saw how good Cincinnati really was in the Bowl game, so it's not like they beat all kinds of teams they shouldn't have. IF ND was so talented even someone like Weis couldn't screw it up. They don't have the talent, and I think even an ND fan that is realistic would have to agree.

 

And there's no discussion. Only someone that is extremely biased would think Notre Dame has anywhere near the amount of talent as other top 10 or 15 programs. What a joke, are you serious?:idunno:

 

Are you serious? You one of the very few people who say that they hadn't brought in very talented classes under Weis. So kind of hard to say what I am saying is a joke, when you are more in the minority on this one. Most people even National Media people have talked about the last few years about talented classes Notre Dame had brought in.

 

To think that coaching wouldn't have a big part in how those talented players do is a joke. Shoot the coach before Urban Meyer got to Florida, put together some very good talent on that team. How was he doing as the coach there? Urban Meyer comes there and he made them a great team. What had Urban Meyer done before he got to Florida? As you mentioned with BK winnning a pathetic confernce, well Urban Meyer won a conference that was worse than the Big East. Only thing different that he did was he won his BCS game. So basically with your thinking, there was no reason to think that Urban Meyer would do any good at Florida, since he really hadn't done much besides win one big game.

 

How was Oklahoma doing before Bob Stoops took over? What about Alabama, what about USC before Pete Carroll? Or as I already said about about Florida before Meyer. All those programs are programs who would have still been bringing in very good recruits no matter who was coaching them. It took a coach to be able to coach up that talent to get them back to what they were. In Pete Carroll, Bob Stoops, and even Meyers case, all those guys really had not proven theirselves as a coach who could get it done at a big time program and turn them around. Yet they have. So its a joke that you act like it would be impossible for it to happen at Notre Dame, when there are several cases of that happening with other big time programs.

 

Oh yeah I forgot about Jim Tressel too. Shoot the man had never proven himself at the Division 1 level. Yet he goes right in there and takes over a talented team that was left before him, and makes them a National Champion. So please don't tell me that coaching does not have much to do with it. You can have talent, and still not do that well. You have to have a good coach to coach up that talent so that talent can really be shown.

 

Maybe BK is not that coach who can do that, but maybe he is. We will find out soon enough. However there is talent there, just need a coach to be able to coach them up. Remember Weis had never been a head coach before, and I am not sure if he ever even coached as an assistant in college. So not hard to believe, that he wouldn't be that good at coaching young kids up. He was use to having the best of the best in the NFL.

FC, those guys inherited tons on NFL defensive talent. They also immediately recruited game and program changing recuits. Do you see a Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, Tim Tebow, Percy Harvin, Rolando McClain, Mark Ingram, Troy Smith, or James Laurinaitis on ND right now? Each of those guys had at least one Heisman winner they recruited in their early recruiting classes.

 

Last I checked Jimmy Clausen left. Sure they have highly recruited classes, but how many NFL guys have they put out lately? Do you see any early rounders on their defensive line? Defensive back? Are you telling me that Notre Dame has the same amounts of athleticism and talent as Florida? I don't care who coaches them, Florida would have the better talent and probably win the matchup. I guess what I'm saying is that they just don't have the athletes. You know kind of like OSU used to? They had to change their recruiting strategy didn't they? I bet they had all kinds of top 5-10 classes. Alot of those years ND and Weis seemed to have a good enough game plan to beat USC they just didn't have the players to do it. The Bush-push year was close and last year was close, but let's not act like that was a good USC team either considering they were humbled quite a bit in the Pac-10.

 

So you would, all things considered say that with equal coaching Notre Dame is in the same league as Florida on a yearly basis talent wise? Bama? Ohio State? Okay, but you're the only one when it comes down to it. I don't care where their classes ranked or who they brought in.

Also you act like Charlie cannot coach. Bellicheck, a coaching legend and notoriously detail oriented guy thought he was good enough for his staff, even won some games with him I think...:lol:. He got NFL OC offers as soon as he was let go. The man may not be the best college coach of all-time, but X's and O's wise I'm taking him over BK any day of the week, and I have alot of respect for BK's offensive skills. He never had the defensive talent or coaching to put a truely great team together and due to alot of factors he never put a good running game together. The talent level and playing level of ND is up higher than it was before Weis.

FC, those guys inherited tons on NFL defensive talent. They also immediately recruited game and program changing recuits. Do you see a Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, Tim Tebow, Percy Harvin, Rolando McClain, Mark Ingram, Troy Smith, or James Laurinaitis on ND right now? Each of those guys had at least one Heisman winner they recruited in their early recruiting classes.

 

Last I checked Jimmy Clausen left. Sure they have highly recruited classes, but how many NFL guys have they put out lately? Do you see any early rounders on their defensive line? Defensive back? Are you telling me that Notre Dame has the same amounts of athleticism and talent as Florida? I don't care who coaches them, Florida would have the better talent and probably win the matchup. I guess what I'm saying is that they just don't have the athletes. You know kind of like OSU used to? They had to change their recruiting strategy didn't they? I bet they had all kinds of top 5-10 classes. Alot of those years ND and Weis seemed to have a good enough game plan to beat USC they just didn't have the players to do it. The Bush-push year was close and last year was close, but let's not act like that was a good USC team either considering they were humbled quite a bit in the Pac-10.

 

So you would, all things considered say that with equal coaching Notre Dame is in the same league as Florida on a yearly basis talent wise? Bama? Ohio State? Okay, but you're the only one when it comes down to it. I don't care where their classes ranked or who they brought in.

 

Your completely misunderstanding what I am saying, and making us having an argument for no reason. Believe it or not coaching HAS A HUGE IMPACT on how well a player does. Even the most talented player in the world, would need a good coach who would coach them up and put them in the right situation. Yes you name all these other players, but IMO those players all also had better coaches, who coached them up better. Some of the guys you mentioned IMO would not have been as good under Weis. Those guys you mentioned played under probably future Hall of Fame coaches in Meyer, Carroll, Saban, etc. Yes those guys recruit well, and also coach those talented guys up and make them even better. So my point with this all is Weis was not as good as doing that. So even if a coach brings in talent, it won't show as much without the coaching. You mention how Notre Dame doesn't have these huge star names that everyone knows about, and that is exactly my point. They have brought in top 10 classes, and have guys that should be better and more noticed than what they are. However Weis IMO failed when it came to coaching many of them up.

 

Your basically telling me that say if Saban, Meyer, Caroll, etc were here that they wouldn't have got those guys to be much better than Weis did? Those guys would have took those top 10 classes, and made them much better. Talent alone will not make a team good. If that was the case, then the coach before Meyer would never have been fired. That kind of shows don't you think that you also have to have the coaching to get even more out of that talent. Once Meyer went there, we seen those same guys that were there with the previous coach actually show their true talent. Look at Alabama before Saban got there. There was talent there when he got there, but the coach before him was not as good at coaching them up and getting the most of that talent, and Saban did almost right away.

 

For the true talent to really show, you have to have the coaching too. Your whole thing about bringing up big names at other schools, and not naming many at Notre Dame really does not help much with this argument. Of coarse we don't here as much from Notre Dame guys, because they haven't had a coach to really get that talent to show even more.

Also you act like Charlie cannot coach. Bellicheck, a coaching legend and notoriously detail oriented guy thought he was good enough for his staff, even won some games with him I think...:lol:. He got NFL OC offers as soon as he was let go. The man may not be the best college coach of all-time, but X's and O's wise I'm taking him over BK any day of the week, and I have alot of respect for BK's offensive skills. He never had the defensive talent or coaching to put a truely great team together and due to alot of factors he never put a good running game together. The talent level and playing level of ND is up higher than it was before Weis.

 

As for Weis yes he was a great offensive coordinator in the NFL. He honestly probably would be a good head coach if he was in the NFL. However he had basically no experience in the NFL. I think we have seen many of times coaches who might be good in the pros, is not as good in college, and vice versa. So that is a pretty weak argument to make that he is a good coach in college, just because he was a good offensive coordinator in the NFL. If he was so good, he probably would have been able to land another head coaching gig at a decent school in college still. I know I sure didn't hear of to many colleges trying to look at him once he got fired.

 

There is a difference with dealing with and teaching college athletes than with Professional athletes. Weis is great at that in the Pro's there is no doubt about that. The man had no experience being a head coach at any level though, and basically no coaching experience in college at all. So I don't think its that hard to see, that he would struggle more than a lot of coache when it comes to coaching up these younger athletes. From the sounds of things, and comments from the players. It sounds like BK has already done more when it comes to coaching up players, than Weis usually did. Weis is a great X and O's guy, but even talented guys still need coaching up, and he was not that great at that IMO.

 

I will agree with the last part of what you said though. The talent level at Notre Dame is up much higher than it was before Weis had got there. Weis did a great job when it came to getting more talent at Notre Dame, just not as great of a job when it came to coaching them up.

FC I didn't read all of that and don't plan on it.

A. If you're comparing Weis or BK to Meyer, Saban, Tressel or Carroll, let me know and I won't take anything you say seriously again.

B. If you think Notre Dame is as talented as those programs let me know and once again I'll not take anything you say seriously again.

 

Did ND have the talent to win more than they did last year? Yes, I agree they did. But, regardless of what the recruiting rankings say, any person with eyes could see that the players Notre Dame has and has had for the last few years overall are not in the same league as the guys Bama or Florida have. How many guys that Notre Dame had last year that would have started at Florida or Bama? 4?

FC I didn't read all of that and don't plan on it.

A. If you're comparing Weis or BK to Meyer, Saban, Tressel or Carroll, let me know and I won't take anything you say seriously again.

B. If you think Notre Dame is as talented as those programs let me know and once again I'll not take anything you say seriously again.

 

Did ND have the talent to win more than they did last year? Yes, I agree they did. But, regardless of what the recruiting rankings say, any person with eyes could see that the players Notre Dame has and has had for the last few years overall are not in the same league as the guys Bama or Florida have. How many guys that Notre Dame had last year that would have started at Florida or Bama? 4?

 

A.) Never once did I compare Weis to those guys. What I said about those guys, were those were guys who were great at coaching up talent. Meyer end up getting the talent that was there before him to show, unlike the coach that was there before him. Same thing goes for Saban. He was able to get the talent that was there before he got there, to actually show itself, and it was because of his coaching. Same goes with Tressel when he first got to OSU.

 

B.) When coming out of high school, I think the last few years Notre Dame had been bringing in guys that were pretty close as talented as those teams were bringing in. The only difference, is what this whole argument has been about. Those teams have coaches who were able to really utilize that talent and coach them up even more to make them even better.

 

Now for the last bolded part. Why do you keep going back to the whole thing about how many guys at Notre Dame would have started at other schools? Yeah when looking at how those guys have panned out, yes we could say only 4 would have started at those places. Now if you have taken the recruits Notre Dame had brought in for the last 3 to 4 years, and had them getting coached by Saban, Meyer, Carroll, etc. then I think we would be saying a lot more than just 3 or 4 guys. Its easy to say well this team doesn't have what this team has, after you have seen the end result. Those guys getting coached by future hall of famers who know how to coach up players. While at Notre Dame they were getting by a coach with no experience coaching up players in college. My whole point of this was that the guys Notre Dame has brought in before they got to college were pretty close as talented as the guys other top programs have brought in. The main difference is those programs have guys who can coach up that talent, and make them even better. If you can't see how those teams have coaches who are able to make that talent even better, then I can't take anything you say serious ever again.

Future Coach-I am with you. I can't figure out if Cats likes ND or not, but he sure is defensive of Weis and the Irish failures of the past coaches era. Charlie failed at some aspect-whether it was recruiting, or coaching 'em up-when you keep getting beat by the Naval Academy-that is a no-no, and hence Weis was shown the door.