Wow, nice posting!!! Interesting to say the least.

Well he was right...It was long.

Well he was right...It was long.

 

Sorry, I'm a little verbose most of the time. :lol:

The question was raised about the Isaiah texts.

 

Isaiah 6:9-10 is the word from God to the actual prophet Isaiah. It follows directly his call in the Temple and it is his commission. If you want to see it as applicable to Jesus' rejection as many other prophets were that is fine but it's not a direct reference to Jesus.

 

The Isaiah 35 and 53 texts are long held as prophetic for their time and for the coming of Messiah found in Jesus.

 

I guess what I would say about some of these texts is that one has to realize that the prophets spoke in a time and place about their present and their future. It doesn't mean that these texts are solely about Jesus or solely about the prophet's present.

 

For example: When Isaiah tells Ahaz in Chapter 7 that a child shall be born and called Immanuel then that prophecy was for Ahaz at the moment. He goes on to say that by the time the child was old enough to be weaned the threat to Ahaz and Jerusalem would be no more.

 

Now when Matthew began to tell the good news of Jesus as the fulfillment of Israel's hope he went back and reminded the readers, "Remember when Isaiah said this child will be born and he's called Immanuel (God with us)? Well God was right and with us then but he REALLY was with us in an even greater way now in this Jesus I will tell you about." He connects the prophecy with an even greater revelation of God's faithfulness through the coming of Jesus.

Now about those Psalms.

 

Psalm 110 is often considered a "Royal Psalm" sometimes used in formal service and coronations of the king. It is attributed to David and held by most as at least used in the historical monarchy of the Judah kingdom in Jerusalem.

 

After the exile, the Royalty Psalms lost significance when the monarchy was destoryed and it then began to be attributed to the concept of Messiah. One of the reasons for the rejection of Jesus as Messiah was that these earthly kingdom like attributes were not fulfilled in Jesus' lifetime.

 

Not sure why the praise Psalm 118 is brought up as prophecy. All prophets and messengers of God "come in the name of the Lord." Jesus naturally would as well as did all other prophets before him.

 

Psalm 69 is right on par with Psalm 22 not as some prophetic utterance but as the revelation of humanity when he/she is at the lowest ebb emotionally and physically. Jesus' life can easily be connected from the cross to this wonderful Psalm but that is not a prophecy of futuristic claim. It is Jesus revealing his Humanity and link with creation at his lowest experience.

 

I don't want to appear as if this is personal. I just think that the scriptures are so sacred and important that we can not "cut and paste" them as some tool for our uses. We must strive to see what they say to their situation and then to our situation. That's why I took the time to look into Jumper's two long lists. I don't reject Jesus in any way but hail him as my savior. Yet I believe I do that best when Scripture speaks for itself without my using it to proof text something.

. I just think that the scriptures are so sacred and important that we can not "cut and paste" them as some tool for our uses. We must strive to see what they say to their situation and then to our situation. That's why I took the time to look into Jumper's two long lists. I don't reject Jesus in any way but hail him as my savior. Yet I believe I do that best when Scripture speaks for itself without my using it to proof text something.

Great, I am glad you accept Jesus. Could you now answer the question you first asked of me and of which each reply from me has led to you questioning the validity of my answers.

 

Can you use the Old Testament to back up your belief? You ask this question of me and seem not to agree with my beliefs, can you back up your beliefs that Jesus is the savior using the OT?

But the point is, can you use the Old Testament to back up your belief?

Back to your original question of me, maybe I can not convince you with any passage from the OT but the NT reinforces my faith in Jesus as the Messiah and the King of Kings verse after verse.

Great, I am glad you accept Jesus. Could you now answer the question you first asked of me and of which each reply from me has led to you questioning the validity of my answers.

 

Can you use the Old Testament to back up your belief? You ask this question of me and seem not to agree with my beliefs, can you back up your beliefs that Jesus is the savior using the OT?

 

Go back and reread the posts again. That wasn't me that "questioned your use of OT." That was thegooch.

 

My "problem", if you want to call it that, is that those OT passages were being misused and abused as some form of prophetic statements when that was not their intention in context.

 

I'm not attempting to "back up my belief." I am attempting to show that sometimes we need diligent exposition of texts and discussion. That's all I was attempting to provide beyond the listing of those passages.

Go back and reread the posts again. That wasn't me that "questioned your use of OT." That was thegooch.

 

My "problem", if you want to call it that, is that those OT passages were being misused and abused as some form of prophetic statements when that was not their intention in context.

 

I'm not attempting to "back up my belief." I am attempting to show that sometimes we need diligent exposition of texts and discussion. That's all I was attempting to provide beyond the listing of those passages.

 

My bad!! On the Gooch thing.

 

 

I agree that there should be a diligent review of the text of the Bible by everyone. I think it is awfully big of us (myself included) to think we can explain that which scholars and religious leaders have studied and argued for years.

 

In my case at the end of the day you either have faith or you do not. There are very few absolutes that we can hold in our hands today to prove what is written in the Bible that would hold up to a scientific review. In my case once I had faith, I, unlike Thomas, no longer needed to touch the wound. You either believe or do not.

Jumper, when did the Psalms become prophetic? Do you think there are prophecies in the Baptist Hymnal?

 

The Psalter is the song book of faith not the prophecies of the prophets. My belief is that it destroys the intent of the Psalter and twists scripture to look for prophetic utterance behind ever verse, particularly songs.

 

Yes there are prophecies in the Psalms and almost every other book of the OT

Yes there are prophecies in the Psalms and almost every other book of the OT

 

The Psalms werent meant to be prophetic

I dont see anyone coming up with a viable defense to the above Points that I have posted.

The Psalms werent meant to be prophetic

 

The whole OT is pointing to Jesus on the cross dying for our sins. The spotless lamb.

I dont see anyone coming up with a viable defense to the above Points that I have posted.

 

I saw a few posts that I thought were pretty good.

 

Aren't you a minister in training? Could you please share with us some viable defense because you probably know more about the Scripture than most of us anyways, especially me.

The whole OT is pointing to Jesus on the cross dying for our sins. The spotless lamb.

 

Could it be perhaps a misinterpretation of the original Hebrew? Do you know Hebrew